Technical homemade 2-piece aluminum head for Ply flat 6

I know a lot of people who call any flathead engine a "flat motor". Now you can call that a mistake if you like but I don't look on it as a such just a difference in terminology. As you said a boxer engine is a different engine entirely.

 

I'm also mystified by the roller cam. With a Plymouth flathead engine it is hard to see what there is to gain since they already have mushroom lifters and very light valve train.

Unless it is a matter of getting a wilder cam profile than you can achieve on a stock camshaft with flat tappets?

In any case it is an intriguing project.

 

"I know a lot of people who call any flathead engine a "flat motor". Now you can call that a mistake if you like but I don't look on it as a such just a difference in terminology. As you said a boxer engine is a different engine entirely. "

When I see someone who doesn't know a flat motor from a flathead motor it immediately stamps them as a greenhorn.

You can call a straight six a V6 too if you like. I don't know how many ads I have seen for old cars, that I know came with inline sixes, calling it a V6.

Does this mean someone has swapped out the original engine for a newer V6? Or does it mean the seller doesn't know what he is talking about? Impossible to say.

So, when someone says his old car has a flat 4 does he have a Model A or a VW? Also impossible to say.

You may laugh it off an call it semantics. But even one letter can make a big difference.

If you don't believe me what about the Scotsman who went into the Ladies room thinking the sign on the door said Laddies?

 

ABSOLUTELY!!

That's the kind of tech magic (I sure can't do it) that makes the HAMB a magnet for me (not that I don't love the whining, opinionated fault finding and drivel) Just kidding!

 

Norm Fricks has been making 2 pc flathead style heads for different engines for close to 20 years if not longer. Its been mentioned on here many times. He uses O-rings to seal around all the bolts and around the perimeter. Kong Jackson's flathead Ford heads back in the 50's were 2 pc also weren't they. Someone on here a couple of years ago had their car featured in TRJ had a set on there.

 

I love the quality workmanship shown in the pics..... it's looks great! I admire your skill and initiative. Looking forward to seeing the progress.

Subscribed!

Ray

 

Subscribed! This is Hot Rodding!
My friend is gona follow this to, as he has a blown Spitfire Six

...............................
Taildragger&fenderless

 

Awesome! Subscribed

 

Thanks for the response!

Let me address some of your questions / comments:

Porknbeaner: I intend to grind my own cam. My "Cam Project" is a long project that I've been tinkering with off and on for a couple years. The idea is to build it completely from scratch: step 1: write the cam design program, step 2: build the "CNC" grinder, and step 3 build the electronics to interface between the computer and the machine. Step 1 is about 80% complete, ~10,000 lines of java code. It works really well but I want to do a fundamental change to the program and have laid the project down for awhile. Meanwhile I've been playing with other electronics projects to get the skills needed to build a microprocessor controled machine. So probably 3-4 years more, depending on where Uncle Sam sends me (active duty Navy).

If people are interested I can start a thread on the "Cam Project." I would like to share the software so other guys can play with it or adapt and build on it for their own uses. I love the engineering side of hot rods and could talk forever sharing what I've learned and learning from others.


Weasel: Thanks for the link to Edgy, he's expanded his line since last time I looked and he's doing some great things running these engines at Bonnevile. I thought about buying one of his heads, but decided the adventure and knowledge gain of doing it myself was more important to me. Besides I had this chuck of aluminum laying around the garage and what's one more project? so......

Rust O'Toole: Carbs: I'm on the fence between 3 and 4. The Ball and Balls are small 1 bbl so 4 is equivalent to 2 2bbl. My VERY rough calculation is as such: take a V-8 with a blower, typicaly running two 650 carbs divided by 6500 RPM divided by 450 cuin that equals .000444 CFM per RPM per cuin. Then adapt that to my engine: .0004444 times 4000 RPM times 201 cuin = 357 CFM. Now I've no idea how many CFM a 1 bbl ball and ball flows but the throttle plates are about the size of the primarys on a QJ. And that's about as far as I got with that. The main reason for 4 is I have 4 and I can squeeze 4 carbs in the length of the motor. But I am concerned that you are correct and it will be too much.
Fuel into carb: on the VR57 website (which is awsome! and full of good historical and practical hot rod info) is some original Paxton instructions that show how to modify a Carter mech. fuel pump. Even without the extra internal seal that Paxton recomends, turbo guys have had good luck with Carter's up to 10 psi. I'll be at 6 psi. I'm certain I can adapt the carter fuel pump lever to the Ply lever.
Spark Plugs: dual plugs, one over the valves, one in the center of the piston. Why would a single spark plug over the piston cause detonation? Do you forsee problems with the dual plug set up? I based it on pictures of old flathead ford dual plug setups.
Flat vs flathead: Yeah, thanks for reminding me of those other engines and the potential confusion. To be honest I was just being plain ole lazy with my typing.
"If this works it should be possible to write a program to produce any type of head.": I agree, but I'm using a manual mill. After all the man-hours, I'm begining to think casting my be less labor intensive! Pottery kilns go to 2000 degrees.....saw one at the thrift store for $50 last week, I was tempted....melt down the gigantic EFI on an '80s Ford? hmmm....

Tub in da dirt: Distributors: I've a '34 Ply in the car now and a '39 block that will be getting the cam, blower, ARP fasteners, oversize vlvs etc. That project will take a couple years, in the mean time I intend to run the head on the normaly aspirated '34 motor and in the begining I was going to use model T Thanks for the response.

Let me address some of your questions / comments:

Porknbeaner: I intend to grind my own cam. My "Cam Project" is a long project that I've been tinkering with off and on for a couple years. The idea is to build it completely from scratch: step 1: write the cam design program, step 2: build the "CNC" grinder, and step 3 build the electronics to interface between the computer and the machine. Step 1 is about 80% complete, ~10,000 lines of java code. It works really well but I want to do a fundamental change to the program and have laid the project down for awhile. Meanwhile I've been playing with other electronics projects to get the skills needed to build a microprocessor controled machine. So probably 3-4 years more, depending on where Uncle Sam sends me (active duty Navy).

If people are interested I can start a thread on the "Cam Project" and I have no problem sharing the software so other guys can play with it or adapt and build on it for their own uses.



Weasel: Thanks for the link to Edgy, he's expanded his line since last time I looked and he's doing some great things running these engines at Bonnevile. I thought about buying one of his heads, but decided the adventure and knowledge gain of doing it myself was more important to me. Besides I had this chuck of aluminum laying around the garage and what's one more project? so......

Rust O'Toole: Carbs: I'm on the fence between 3 and 4. The Ball and Balls are small 1 bbl so 4 is equivalent to 2 2bbl. My VERY rough calculation is as such: take a V-8 with a blower, typicaly running two 650 carbs divided by 6500 RPM divided by 450 cuin that equals .000444 CFM per RPM per cuin. Then adapt that to my engine: .0004444 times 4000 RPM times 201 cuin = 357 CFM. Now I've no idea how many CFM a 1 bbl ball and ball flows but the throttle plates are about the size of the primarys on a QJ. And that's about as far as I got with that. The main reason for 4 is I have 4 and I can squeeze 4 carbs in the length of the motor. But I am concerned that you are correct and it will be too much.
Fuel into carb: on the VR57 website is some original Paxton instructions that show how to modify a Carter mech. fuel pump. Even without the extra internal seal that Paxton recomends, turbo guys have had good luck with Carter's up to 10 psi. I'll be at 6 psi. I'm certain I can adapt the carter fuel pump lever to the Ply lever.
Spark Plugs: dual plugs, one over the valves, one in the center of the piston. Why would a single spark plug over the piston cause detonation? Do you forsee problems with the dual plug set up? I based it on pictures of old flat ford dual plug setups.
Flat vs flathead: Yeah, thanks for reminding me of those other engines and the potential confusion. To be honest I was just being plain ole lazy with my typing.
"If this works it should be possible to write a program to produce any type of head.": I agree, but I'm using a manual mill.

Tub in da dirt: Distributor: I've a '34 Ply engine in the car now and a '39 block that will be getting the cam, blower, ARP fasteners, oversize vlvs etc. That project will take a couple years, in the mean time I intend to run the head on the normaly aspirated '34 motor and in the begining I was going to use model T thumb screws from MACs on the plug terminals and a piece of flat copper between the plugs, firing both plugs from a stock dist. with MSD hidden under the cowl. Not too concerned about max HP more for the cool factor. But that brings up an interesting question: What do you guys think of running two plugs off the same wire? I think that only one plug will fire, the one with the least resistance. Which is why I'm interested in Rusty O'Tooles statment about detonation on a center located plug. That said, eventualy I will build a custom dual dist. Anybody got a lead on some cheap 6 cyl, mech advance distributors? I think a pair of small body mallory's would be the best looking. I'd machine an oblong aluminum case to mount the distributors and use a cog belt inside the case to drive them. Same as the big boys.

Thanks again, any and all comments are appreciated.

Kipp

 

Guess I screwed up the cut and paste somehow...Tub in da dirt, the completed answer is at the bottom of my last post.

Kipp

 

I know a lot of people that are wrong. Popularity does not make the incorrect, correct, just popular.

 

""I know a lot of people who call any flathead engine a "flat motor" ""

Yes, I do too but it is one word not two..""Flatmotor""

 

Rusty O'toole, you are correct that Plymouths have mushroom tappets and the bores are ~ .750" where as SBC (cheap, plentiful) roller lifters are ~.950" (I forget the exact dims) Solution: mill out the outer half of the lifter bores, install a piece of ~1 X ~2 inch steel with bolts and epoxy, rebore the lifter bores to a larger diameter. machine bronze inserts that reach down to the OD of the cam and pop in some chev rollers, 11/32" dia stem vlvs, cut the heads to size, and run what ever springs necessary to prevent vlv foat. Oh, and take out the inards of the SBC hyd lifters and slightly machine the Ply adj. tappets to fit inside the SBC lifters so you have adjustable roller lifters. (still working out the details of this last part, but that's the idea so far)

Roller because a piece of 8000 series steel is easier to obtain than a cast iron cam blank required for flat tappet and b/c if your going to invest several years into making a camshaft you might as well run the biggest baddest wildest cam you can stuff into the block, until ya get tired of it not starting after stopping for 10 minutes at the quick store.....but what the hell, my '65 Chev is supose to be reliable, my roadster, well...as they say, "Street rodders carry wax, hot rodders carry tools."

That's the initial idea. My only concern is the strength of the adjustable part of the stock tappets. I could use lash caps, but they won't fit the spherical sockets of the SBC lifters very well, so I'd have to machine some sort of replacement insert for the SBC lifters that have a slight dome where they contact the vlv.

Kipp

 

Sounds cool. Been rolling this idea around in my head for a bit after seeing a two piece Hudson head on eBay. Have a CNC at work, just need to design a head. And get a big hunk of aluminum...

I would sure like see your cam program, would like to learn more on cam design.

You've gone this far down the rabbit-hole, why not design roller lifters to fit your Plymouth bores?

Good luck, keep us up to date.

 

Why couldn't you make your own lifters, 3/4" dia, to fit the stock lifter bores? Use small ball bearings for rollers, the outer race rides on the cam. Since you are designing your own cam you can use any dia rollers you like.

I did not think this up, the first hot rod roller lifters in the fifties were made this way.

I still think the roller cam is overkill. You could do everything you need to do, with a reground stock cam.

In fact you might do better to tone down the whole project and build a near stock engine with the supercharger, and modify it from there. One good reason is that if you make too many mods to begin with , you never know which ones are effective and which ones aren't.

 

Re the dual plugs. They are a good idea on the flathead. When I looked at the picture I saw the plug holes above the piston but missed the ones off to the side. This is the fault of my bad eye sight.

 

crazy, i was just thinking of doing a head like this about a month ago, but i couldnt find anything like it. but i dont have a mill so it will just be a dream.

might i make a few suggestions.

megajolt for your ignition would rock, you could fire two ranger edis coil packs http://www.autosportlabs.net/Megajolt_Lite_Jr.

and for carbs you could use a 3bbl solex or weber idf off of a porche since the flathead has 3 intake ports. weber would be the best since they work well in a blow through application, and the huge selection of aftermarket parts.

im thinking of running one on mine if i can find one at the next vw show/swapmeat


i like the outside of the box thinking, even though most dont approve on this site most of the time.

keep up the updates

jeff

 

Subscribed. I love this kind of old fashioned hot rod ingenuity.


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Rusty O'toole: Its an interesting idea. Off the top of my head one problem is that the smaller the roller the greater the contact angle (angle between the centerline of the lifter bore and a straight line from the center of the roller to where it contacts the cam) for a given valve acceleration. From what I've read, any thing over 30 degress will cause excessive side loading of the lifters. Turns out the flat tappet design, equivalent to a roller with a ~40 in radius roller, requires far less spring force to control the vlvs than the same vlv profile using roller lifters. The old engineers knew what they were doing! and therefore less force that the cam has to apply to the lifter. The smaller the roller, the larger the forces. At some point we exceed the "hardness" of the cam/roller surface and things fail.

But more practicaly can't beat ~$150 for a set of 16 lifters that last in a stock engine for 200K miles. I can't build that.

Still...I'll have to research your idea, alot less machine work involved.

Kipp

 

If you want to go crazy look up Bus Schaler's quarter speed camshaft. He was an old time hot rodder and motorcycle mechanic who made roller camshafts that ran at 1/4 engine speed or 1/2 the normal speed. Each cam had 2 lobes. To get the cam to go through the stock cam bearings he had to make the lobes small and use roller lifters.

The idea was to reduce friction although he also claimed the lifter followed the cam easier because of the reduced speed, and that he could use lighter valve springs.

Totally unnecessary on a flathead engine. I still don't know what is wrong with a reground stock cam and why you want to make a steel billet roller cam.

 

Look into slant six distributors - they can be adapted to Mopar flathead sixes, google it a bit. You should be able to get 6 sparks easily, don't know about 12, not sure it's very easy with mechanical distributor.


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Neat project!! I have one of these out of a big Dodge truck I think is a 235 cid and have been looking into speed parts. They are few and far between. The roller cam is a good idea I think. With the flathead you don't run a rocker arm and higher lift is a little tougher to get out of a cam. The roller would be the ticket.

Flat 6? Call it what you want. At least you didn't call it a motor. They are powered with electricity not fuel......

 

Today I ground the combustion chambers smooth with a carbide burr, came out well and I'm glad that part is done b/c of all the steps to the head, that's the one I dislike the most. Like porting and polishing OHV heads, just drives me nuts. Now, grinding and welding a frame I can do all day, but something about that little bit trying to go all over the damn place that I can't stand! So, like I said, I'm glad that part is done.

Let me bring every one up to speed:

1) I started with a large slab of 3/4" Al. I used 3/4" b/c that's what I had laying around, but in hindsight I should have popped for some thicker Al, 1" at least. I roughed out the shape on a band saw (a craftsman wood band saw that has been slowed down to cut metal, a great way to get a cheap metal band saw, can't take credit for this one, flamedabone's idea).

2) I used a fly cutter to make the top and bottom matting surfaces of both pieces flat.

3) Traced an old head gasket onto the head and decided on a good location for two roll pins, one at each end, and 6 jacking bolt so I'll be able to get the two halves back apart. Drilled and reamed the pin holes and drilled and tapped the jacking bolt holes. I used 1/4" roll pins to ensure that the two halves stay in the correct orinientation to each other no matter how many times I take them apart and put them back together.

4) Now that the two halves are pinned together, I milled the sides and ends flat and square.

5) I attempted to measure out the head bolts on the block, figuring they would be nice and evenly spaced and all in straight lines. Wrong. The bolts are all over the place, .050" here, .030" there, .100" somewhere else! crazy stuff. So I clamped the head gasket to the head in the mill and located the head bolt holes off the gasket. Worked perfectly and the head actualy bolted to the block the first time! Which was a relief.

6) Bolted the head to the block. Located the center of the valves on the head using an 11/32" rod with a point ground through the vlv guides and pricked the head.

7) Ground a piece of HSS and put it in the fly cutter, see attached photo. I ground an 1/8" radius to give a radius in the head around the vlv area.

8) cut the vlv pockets and made them as large as the head gasket would allow.

9) guesstimated how far the combustion chamber should go into the cylinder area based on the stock head. Machined and ground one chamber out. CC'ed it only to discover that what I tought was going to be a very small combustion chamber with upwards of 8.5:1 comp. actually yeilded 7.3:1 compression. Which will work fine for a flathead blower application on pump gas, but I am dissappointed that it gave me no wiggle room. Lesson learned, start out very conservative on chamber size.

10) Used measurements from the semi-finished chamber to rough in the rest of the chamber using an end mill.

11) Today semi-finished the rest of the chambers and smooth finished the one cylinder.

Next is to CC the rest of the chambers to make sure they are close to one another then finish them smooth.

Some tips thus far: Don't finish cut the bottom of the head until AFTER you make the head Use an old head gasket and keep it clamped in position while grinding out the chambers so if / when you slip ya won't screw up the matting surface.

Vlv lift: Stock vlv lift is .310" The stock head will not allow too much more with out fly cutting it over the valves, assuming the clearace between the vlv and head is equal to the head gasket. I made my vlv pocket capable of handling .450" vlv lift. Yes, I know that is a rediculus amount but there are sound reasons that would be better adressed on a Cam profile thread.



Kipp

 

Can't wait to see how the head turns out. There is one guy running a Nostalgia T/F car with a "homemade" 2 piece intake on a 392 based Hemi, and another guy running Nostalgia F/C with his "homemade" 2 piece intake on a 426 based Hemi.

 

I think your head is a great idea. That's what hot-rodding is about! I remember in Australia back in the 70s a guy made an entire hemi dragster engine by welding steel plate together then allowing it to cool slow in a 44 gallon drum of sand. I often feel a bit nostalgic for the old days when I see guys on the Hamb list their build thread as a complete front end from Speedway, or a complete rolling 32 frame from xxxxx ..... seems even the Hamb has its share of 1-800 check-book rodders. You sir, are the epitome of the do it yourself builder, and I congratulate you for it.
To the person who supplied the Edgy link, maybe he doesn't want a head that says Edgy in big letters. I know I wouldn't.

 

The cam is currently oiled by squirt holes in the rod ends, certainly has proofed sufficient for the factory set up. Wonder if you might need to address this with your proposed set up. Folks have also in the past needed to address better bearing oiling by cross drill the crank. It seems you can do a lot to and with these engins as they are but if you plan on extended time over 4K rpm you need to protect the bearing better.

I think you might be needlessly complicating intake manifolding with multiple carbs. In 56 there was a factory option intake that mounted a Carter 2bbl, These carbs were used on everything up to 318's and perhaps even the 361's. Seems that one of those would fit your needs without the need to modify 4 carbs and invent all the plumbing needed to deal with it. In fact you could do it like paxton did and make a Hat to put over the carb and run it inside a pressurized environment so the carb wouldn't need to be modified and the only thing that would need to be sealed woudl be the fuel line ad the throttle shaft. Your car build it however, just making some sugestions to maybe make it simpler to accomplish, and get a less fussy system.

 

Realy intresting, Im also building a 1928 roadster with dodge 218 and a s.co.t supercharger, cool to follow.

 

My 54 plymouth loves people like you! More mopar

 

well it is definately an interesting project. im likely missing something in the 2 piece idea. are you machining a top half that will have water jackets running though it ?

I can confidently tell you that 4 carbs wont help you over 3. Remember you have 3 siamese intake ports. I am not just talking out my hat here, we have built and manufacture triple carb intakes for the flahtead chrysler 6 cylinder motors.

I can also show you how to get way more cfm out of the carter ball and ball than you may realize is possible. we have ver 2400 cfm in 3 carbs on our race car. As well nothing wrong with trying to make your own cam pattern, although depending what your trying to achieve, we may already have it. Aka we have a cam that idles just over 2000 rpm and will spin up over 7000 rpm.

By now you maybe thinking sure..

so here .. check out the two youtube videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8HstaY4m5c<VAR id=yiv378468068yui-ie-cursor></VAR>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=746WRhH9hSQ

then if your interested, drop me a line at [email protected] and we can perhaps talk. |Definately we have used and have edmund alunimum heads, however would be interested if you can develop a different head.

take care

tim

 

Hi all, Thought I'd let everyone following this thread know that I'm in the process of moving, so I loaded up the garage about 2 months ago. I expect to have a garage back in 6 - 12 months.

Thanks for all the ideas and I'll post as soon as I get some more work done to the head.