NOT honing a cylinder wall, is it recommended?

That's so true,really does work ,for awhile..........And was actually done on piston aircraft engines as a last resort.

 

"Early vegas with the all aluminum block you didn't hone, if you did the rings would roll the cylinder wals right off"...

Now there was a marvel of modern science!!

 

I wouldnt skip it

not only for the new piston ring seating, but for any possible ridge at the top of the cyl. if by chance you dont have the best of luck your top ring could get broken when the engine is back up and running when the top ring keeps smacking the ridge

 

Yeah, that would be when it has real low hrs. and the crosshatch looks good.

 

As was mentioned, there are coated bores that should not be honed. Those are either either usable as is, or they are there are not usable at all. For noncoated bores, with some kinds of rings, if the bores are in the right condition, it is possible to get by without honing. That is not going to be the case with the typical street engine and/or the typical re-ring job. If there is any question or doubt as to whether honing is needed, best to hone.

It';s very important to have the right bore finish for the type of bore, and for the ring being used. The finish that a hard block or hardened bore with a chrome or hard steel ring needs is different than what a plain iron or moly ring in the average bore needs. Using the wrong finish for the hardware will cause the same problems as not honing when you should have.

 

Engines are often honed and re-ringed when they should be bored. While that can be an improvement over what you have, an engine like that won't equal one that has a well fitting piston in a straight and round bore. The rings you mentioned are for sticking in a new set of rings without having to remove the wear ridge at the top of the bore. Even with those rings the bore needs to be honed.

 

your supposed to take the ridge off the top with a ridge reamer.

 

If it's bad enough to need a ridge reamer--it's bad enough to need bored.

 

The most important issue is the condition of the cylinder. I have seen very few engines that had beautiful bores on teardown. Sealed Power/Speedpro and Perfect Circle told us in 1983 that their rings were so good you did not HAVE to hone a cylinder unless it had an issue. A race motor definitely needs a finish hone! I like to know what each bore's clearance is. I have ringed some asian and german blocks and never put a hone to em! Most of what we see on our old(er) stuff is severe ridge at the top, waves all down the bore and all manner of scratches and grooves. Ringed a 350 once that ALL the rings were broken escept oil rings. Bores were smooth as glass and W A V Y ! Put rings in it, no honing or sanding (customer insisted) and it did not smoke! Didn't have to last long, just long enough to trade!! peace

 

Our man from down under most likely hit on something that the rest of us missed. Some of the new blocks may not need honing in certain situations like our old cast iron blocks do. Where we think of a 1970 block being "new and modern" we forget that a lot of the populace is working on stuff less than 15 years old.

I'll still hone my cylinders just like I've been doing for the past 50 years.

 

For Christ sakes hone it put rings in it and go.

 

It's suggested you do not hone the cylinders only for in-chassis re-ring jobs where you are not going to be cleaning the block out, and maybe not even removing the crankshaft or changing the bearings. In these cases, the leftover material from the hone would obviously be more detrimental to the motor than leaving it un-honed, and it's considered a valid tradeoff. I consider this kind of work to be half-assed anyways, but I suppose it's totally fine if you want a cheap, relatively easy way to get a motor back on the road and quit burning oil for another 30,000 miles or something.

 

It be kinda stupid not to hone the block out...
That's my .02 cents!....

 

...... or to just put rings in without measuring to see what you have.

 

I have in the past used old style Hastings cast rings in 216-235 Chevy motors without honing, just kind of scubbed the cylinders with a bit of emery cloth and installed the rings. I was a poor kid and didn't have a hone is the truth of the matter. This was before multi ring oil rings and drove them all with the old steady thirty, steady fifty etc. with no hard excelloration or decelloration. In an old Chevy four (27) I put the old rings back in after sanding the edges and the cylinder it worked fine. Don't get me wrong I am not recommending the practise just reminising.

 

I think the ridge reamer is really best used just to take the ridge down so you can get the pistons out of the bore without the rings hanging up and breaking the ring lands.

 

....... and to knock the ridge down so the bore can be honed and any remaining ridge eliminated.

Patching things up is one thing. Doing it properly and getting a good outcome is another. Per what "Larry T" said, "If it's bad enough to need a ridge reamer--it's bad enough to need bored."

 

Mr48,
You have actually touched on something. They claim that the late 360 Dodge engine with the plasma moly rings from the factory very seldom needs boring on the first overhaul. From what I have read it has to do with the rings themselves but it could be a better grade of material in the block.

They would still need to be roughed up even if you were going back with plasma moly rings (why wouldn't you?) if you want them to seat properly.

 

You guys with the dingle ball hones are shade trees that don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. As for the original question- the answer is yes, there are times when you replace rings without honing. Ask D.W. to verify.Mercedes engine instructions have very good photos that define this. If the crosshatch is still readily visible and there are no vertical scratches in the wall then honing isn't necessary. Before you ask why rering it in that case, its because rings can lose their tension, due to heat or bad metal. Old type stuff that's worn out is different, but only in a dirt floored shed or under a shade tree would a dingle berry hone be acceptable and it probably wouldn't be necessary with all the sand flying around.

 

Dingle ball amateurs..... most professional engine builders and mechanics can't look at a cylinder more and understand what they are seeing(or not seeing). Even if YOU know everything about everything, that doesn't make everyone less knowledgeable than you a dumb-ass.

 

The three stone cylinder hone has its place,
The Dingle ball hone has its place.

Both complete their task very well.

Some understand the use of tools, how to get the wanted results.
Its all been explained at least once in this thread.

Use the wrong tool and you'll get the wrong results

 

Been quite a few years but I used Dingle ball hones on my race engines to break the glaze when reringing and had no problems achieving 99.9% sealing checking with a leak down tester after proper breakin. (Cast iron block, cheap pistons, and stock rings)
If the block needed honing I paid a machinist to power hone with my dummy head bolted and torgued to spec because with some engines the cylinders can distort when the head is torqued and you haven't made the cylinders round with just a stone hone.

Google "dummy head for block honing" if you are not familiar with this practice.

 

..... or Google "torque plate".

 

http://www.google.com/search?q=dumm..._qIebs0gGa64CQBw&ved=0CD0QsAQ&biw=360&bih=640


Dummy head ^^^

Also hear the 4 yr old call the 6 yr old " dummy head" - he gets in trouble

 

Ok I build around 300 engines a year and most of them I bore.As far as honing the ball hone does a good job on used cyl. walls where as the honing cabinet will remove too much.The main purpose of the crosshatch is to make the rings rotate on the ring lands as well as retaining oil on the wall.I use marvel mystery oil for piston and ring assembly with great success.

 

Recommended, depends on who you talk to and what it is. The machine shop will always say it needs to be bored out or that it needs to be honed thats how they make money. In reality not every engine needs it. Ive put plenty of rings in engines and didnt hone and didnt bore. It all depends on what the cylinder wall looks like, if there's cross hatching present and if a ridge is present at the top. The last engine I tore down looked like it was in the machine shop the day before at least on the inside! Rings cost about 50 bucks if thats all it needs then thats all it needs. It needs to be bored and honed is the typical shop answer but isn't always true.

 

http://www.google.com/patents/US20100316798
"The invention provides a cylinder bore spraying apparatus capable of carrying out honing processing and finishing after a sprayed film is formed in a cylinder bore in a state where the cylinder bore is deformed by a dummy head."

Also known as a torque plate but I suspect the first hotrodder torque plates were probably made from real heads with cutouts as they are not cheap.

 

i have heard of this, but i honed the cylinders with a stone tool and wd40 when i rebuilt my 200. i used valvoline 10w30 on the rings

it's been my daily driver for over 3 years, now
never burned a lick of oil

 

You are correct, I shouldn't. But it really irks me when someone asks a legit question, like the person who started this thread, and then all the squirrels chime in with their 1 1/2 cents worth without ever answering the question. Probably because they don't know the answer.

 

Irk yourself all you want.
Sounds like you don't know what a dingle ball hone is supposed to do or let alone why or when you should use one.

Here's a hint - no torque plate means no 3 stone hone.
Sometimes there is no need for a bore or a torque plate or to finish hone.