Fastest way to determine cubic inches:

5 Pages and still no answer, Chaps my hide all you purest out the that bemoan anything to do with brackets or index. These styles of racing were created because no one back then ,continuing thru today could not figure it out either. And then when you do figure it out what are you going to use as a weight factor to CI table. You are going to need 20hr to tech 250 cars spending 5 minutes on each car, Do you really have the time for that?
2 minute safety tech (2 guys checking)
2 dial-in passes
All boxes turned off
Blinder on the tree
Winner goes back to stageing
loser goes home

 

Do like the H.A.M.B. drags, I believe it is called the HONOR system !!!!
Otherwise get ready for a bitchfest and a teardown stall .

 

I'm probably on half of this forums " Ignore " list, and well frankly so are a lot of you. The difference is in reality I still have no issues with anyone here when it comes to push or shove.

That said, Ive been street racing and Pro racing for decades and here is my humble suggestion.

The key word is " incentive ", and that incentive is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

I'm sure you will be collecting even a modest dollar amount for the entrence to the meet right?

OK, set aside a nice little " purse ", and offer that to the tried and trued " QUICK 16. Heads up, run what you brung for the big boys, and the winner of these QUICK 16 gets the $$$$ prize, simple right?
Everyone gets 1 lap down the track eliminations, and even with something as simple as a stop watch, you pick the Quikest 16.

Everyone else or the remaining 234 HAMBers have the time of their life seeing what their Jalopy will do against another HAMBER and have some FUCKING FUN!!!!!!!!

 

i can't come up with a solid mathematical formula to determine exact handicaps given right now. Maybe i could during a long plane ride or something..............

But here is a rough example:

Say we have a light 1800lb front engine dragster paired up against a 55 chevy. Forget about engines for now and the reason why they got paired up was random---they just happened to be in those positions in line.

We've determined that the 55 coupe weighs 3300lbs. Now since the dragster is 1500 lbs. lighter we give the 55 a 1.5 second headstart. There is nothing in the rules that says the 55 can't have the same engine as whatever the dragster might have. In fact, we don't know or care what engine either cars have because it's too complicated(apparently). BUT, we can easily, decisively, and quickly determine weight and that's something. There are no breakout rules in effect----you run as fast as you can.

a) i want it to be basically all full bodied cars----must run hood, fenders, doors, roof etc. i just put the dragster in there to make the explaination simple for now.

 

No, basically what this does is discourage anyone from trying to make any power.

 

TR, bet I'm on more ignore lists than you...

 

By the time you get all this figured out your "250 classes" is gonna basically be bracket racing with no break outs. Then you're gonna get some folks sand bagging and it's gonna be you can't run faster than your quickest qualifing run and (who'd have thought it) you have bracket racing with breakouts.

 

Talk to the people in the tower that work the tree if they can even do that. Most systems use the 2 dial numbers and the computer does the cypher'n. Weight does not work unless it is done in the back of the lanes before they go up to race. Whos going top watch the top end to make sure nobody throws a engine block in the trunk or shot bags under the seat?What will happen if the car shows up 5# lite or I had to add 50# and could not get to the scales (nobody there).
You are taking a fun day of racing and creating a mess. Forget the classes, weight, CI bull and just RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG and create other awards or prizes ie; best reaction, $100 for anyone that can hit certain random ET's,things like that.

 

i'm not capable of making things simple. i'd like to further explore and discuss handicapping based on weight only. i think i may be on to something.

 

Take some asprin and it will go away

 

Hey T/R..... What happened to your "high heels" avatar???...

 

I'm still confused...

 

Well everyone is pretty much ignoring this, because its absolute nonsense, and the reason why is as plain as the nose on your face, but at the risk of being obvious man, here goes. Because the guys who makes the most power and hooks it up wins. Every time. You will have a class chock full of 600" + blown alky motors, in cars of varying wieghts and the guy with the biggest wallet hires the sharpest engine builder, the sharpest chassis guy and the sharpest tuner to make this mess work. We already have something very close to what you are describing (you wanted full body, right?) its called Pro-Mod. And it SURE AS HELL isnt what I would describe as grass-roots, heads-up racing. This is just descending into sillyness, and you dont even realize it. Learn a bit about racing, get some rule books spend some time at your local track.

 

Yea, where did that go ?

 

i know it may sound silly, yet i feel we must explore it in an exhaustive effort to make it work:

1) gasoline only allowed---i think this is easy to police--which is key to all this.

2) No blowers, nitrous etc. ----for now.

"the sharpest chassis guy/tuner" Exactly! the problem with this is?

The thought of 600 cid engines beginning to appear; i don't see the problem with this? Essentially what we've done is set up a solid and fair way to handicap while having essentially unlimited engine rules. i'm not sure how/why this is nessesarily bad?

 

I like the "spend some time at your local track" suggestion.

I don't mean any offense, but it sounds like you don't really have any understanding of how drag racing works.

 

No offense taken---i consider this a strictly technical discussion.
I think i do have above average knowledge of how drag racing works. What i'm trying to explore is why weight only handicapping WON'T work.

 

i like this. What rpm would you measure at?

 

In your dragster and 55 Chevy you consider weight only. But what if the digger has a 600 inch mountain motor and the 55 has a 305 inch Chevy. Half the size. That is why classes have always been based on cubic inch to weight ratio. The only other way is Observed Performance like the Pinks show. Then bracket them together. In the mid 60s we would run class eliminations, and then fast 8. Second fast 8. and so on. For 4th eliminator I might run anything that was about as quick as my car. At the lakes long ago they ran time trials and then grouped the cars by speed. So you might run a car with higher top speed but if your car was quicker, you won. That might be a fun thing to bring back.

 

Because NHRA tried it for years in Pro Stock and gave up when they could not make it work to where everybody was satisfied. Gave everybody 500ci and a minimum weight and let them have at it.
I guess is that you have not been in any contact with a track owner with this idea and if you did get the opperator interested it was because he offered to RENT you the track for your idea.And to top it all off I dont beleive there are 250 cars out there willing to particapate in it either.

 

Because now we are saying run any engine you want but we are still going to have some sort of handicap start based on weight. It's still racing.

1) i think we are getting caught up in the whole "the biggest(wealthiest) man will win" syndrome:
a) How many guys do really think will buy a $50,000 mountain motor just to win a $1000-2000 weekly purse----because right now it's amateur at this point.

b) Even if some do, then you do what GBP opponents did: If Greer Black and Prudhomme go to irwindale on friday night, you go to lions. If, on sat night, GBP goes to san fernando, you go to irwindale etc. etc. etc.

i think we may be getting too caught up in the if they're "invincible" then i don't have a chance and i'm not going to compete mentality. There's so much more to racing than size of the engine.

In the example, let's say the 55 does have a 305. There's nothing that says the 55 can't also have a 600cube monster if the driver wants one. In no-breakout racing most people would probably not seriously consider running a 305 anyways, so the 305 would get weeded out pretty quickly anyways.

 

I thought you were trying to come up with a one time club day deal. Now I think you want to go into competition with NHRA or Good Guys. Which is it? And what if you have 2 '55 Chevys, One with a 265 and one with a 572? They weigh the same. Do they have the same potential? Is the guy with the 265 going to run it? Or stay in the stands? Will he step up for a 572? Or make the house payment. Is there another dragstrip within 200 miles he can go to? This isn't SoCal in 64.

 

Like I said, you REALLY need to spend some time at your local track. Better yet, build a car and do a little bracket racing. The above statement is about the most ridiculous so far, and there have already been a few humdingers. I'm trying not to be mean here, but as someone who helped write a set of rules for a heads-up street car series, then teched and TRIED to police said series, you REALLY have no clue. And we werent offering ANYTHING CLOSE to $1000 a win. I'd tell you about some of the motors and PURPOSE BUILT cars that turned up for our events, and I would elaborate, but I dont really think you have enough background to grasp what I would tell you anyway.

 

There are plenty of guys who will spend $50K to win a $100 weekly purse. Just like there are plenty of men who will spend $200M to win a yacht trophy worth nearly nothing.

 

OK here's why weight only handicapping WILL NOT work.
Let me add to your above average knowledge of drag racing..... "acceleration "
It is the main goal, what everything in drag racing is based on and that is always a relationship between power and weight. Weight alone is completely irrelevant. Power alone is just as irrelevant.

What is acceleration?
Acceleration is a product of power (force) and weight (mass)

Notice how everything you need to solve any formula is on the score board. Sometimes you'll have to sole one and use its answer to solve the next.

Have fun :


The most famous is a = F/m, where F is the net force applied to a mass, m. Acceleration is also the change in velocity, (Delta-V), divided by the change in time, (Delta-t). So, a = Δv/Δt.

For example, if an object's velocity changes from 10 meters per second to 20 meters per second in five seconds, its acceleration is (20-10)/5 = 2 meters per second per second, or 2 meters per second squared (m/s 2 ). For circular motion, centripetal acceleration is v 2 /r, where v is the linear velocity of the rotating object and r is the radius of its circular path.

Equations in a nutshell

Constant Acceleration

a = Δv/Δt = (v final - vi nitial ) / (t final - t initial ) a = (v 2 -u 2 )/2s

a = 2(s - ut)/t 2

where a=acceleration (m/s 2 ) v=final velocity (m/s) u=initial velocity (m/s) t=time (s) s=distance (m). OR a=(v-v o )/t a=acceleration (m/s 2 ) v=final velocity (m/s) v o =initial velocity (m/s) t=time (s).

Newton's Second Law F = ma, thus, a = F/m Centripetal Acceleration a c = v 2 /r

Warning: Calculus Speak: Acceleration is the second derivative of position with respect to time: d 2 x / dt 2 , which makes it the first derivative of velocity: dv / dt. Therefore, the acceleration is the slope of the curve on the velocity-versus-time graph. Thus: a = dv / dt = d 2 x / dt 2 Acceleration is a quaternion with real and vector parts: a= (V^2/R - cDel.v)) + (dcv/dR + cDelxv + V^2/R r)

a= (V^2/R - cV/R cos(v)) + (dv/dt + cv/R sin(v) + V^2/R r) where R=ct and dR=cdt. cv/Rcos(v) is the Centrifugal Acceleration a part of the real accelerations in the first parenthesis. The second parenthesis contains the vector accelerations.

Acceleration = F/m, where F is the net force applied to a mass, m. a=f/m, acceleration in terms of velocity. a = v - u/t Delta Velocity divided by Time.

A = ΔV ÷ T Acceleration is worked out by (final speed - initial speed)/ time taken for change in speed a = v 2 -v 1 / t 2 -t 1 Strictly you should say velocity ie the speed in a certain direction. Youalso have the formula f=ma which tells you that the force needed to get something moving will be the mass of the object multiplied by the accelertion you want to achieve; so from this formula if you know force and mass you can work out acceleration. The formula for acceleration is: V f -(V i )/t ie. change in velocity per unit time. Instantaneous acceleration in its differential form is d 2 x/dt 2 where x is a function of time t. Acceleration is the time rate of change of velocity.

That is, acceleration = dv /dt (v - velocity ; t - time) Or simply acceleration = change in velocity / time

 

That sure cleared things up.

 

This is a site i use,its called online conversions,from hat size to cu inch shttp://www.onlineconversion.com/

 

I tried to work up a straight weight handicap system into my computer and all I got was the error code ID-10-T
To many variables and no constants

 

Thank you. i understand that acceleration is the product of power and mass.

What i'm essentially saying in these proposals is we are going to give handicaps based on weight---because that's very easy and fast to determine and let the engine variable be free(within certain easy to detect parameters, i.e., no blowers, nitrous, gas only etc)---because it's not practical to measure each and every car's engine that competes.

This still offers some measure of level playing field. It's now up to you build the best engine you can to best of your abilities---which really is the whole point of drag racing anyways........

The faster car will win. Isn't that what drag racing is all about?

i think this idea could work and it's much, much more exciting and meaningful than bracket racing.

 

Silly me, and here I thought that drag racing was about who was faster, not who can sandbag it closest to their dial-in.
PS, I like your avatar