I'm going to start building a Model A roadster in the spring, and I was thinking of Flathead power until I saw an ad for an auction near my house. Not a whole lot of useful stuff, but listed among the lots were a pair of "Lincoln big block" engines - no further info or pictures. I know a bit about identifying Ford and Chrysler engines, but what should I be looking for on these?
I'm no expert, but most likely they are 460s from later Connies. Could also be MELs, from the late 50s if they have Lincoln on the valve covers. Until you're sure what the engine family is, there's no way to give any useful info... I'd suggest letting us know when the auction is, then photograph them as soon as you get there and post the pics up if you can...or at least give us a better description. Chances are you'll have an answer before bidding opens on them.
probably MEL motors, i guess they could be the big y-blocks with that vague description. do a search for MEL, lincoln. i think kutultz on here is the one who always has the info on those motors
Well, here's a link to the listing... http://www.kikoauctions.com/view_upcoming_auctions.php?nav=auctions&details=1501
Now that's a cool looking mill. It'd look slick with zoomie headers, since the exhaust ports are evenly spaced...
The 2 that come to mind are the 430 cu/in of 1958 with 375 hp that was basically a truck engine and the 460 cu/in of later years that put out about 100 hp less. They both weigh more than 700 lbs and while they are very dependable and provide good torque they would not be the best for a Model A. 740 lbs is about 1/3rd of the total weight of a Model A and that much weight on the front of a Model A chassis would make for somewhat poor handling. There are so many engines that are better suited to your Model A that I would look for something else. I am putting 1/2 of a big block ford in mine in the form of an Aluminum 470 Mercruiser 4 cylinder boat engine. It uses an aluminum 460 Ford head on an aluminum die cast Mercury Marine block. It also uses 4.36" 460 Ford pistons and rods and 351 Cleveland main bearings. It is slightly de-stroked from the 460 Ford spec to 3.75" for a total displacement of 224 cu/in. It will produce about 225 hp and weigh about 330lbs total. It will fit between the Model A frame rails better than a V8 and produce more torque and hp than most early V8 engines at 200 lbs less weight. I also have several 181 cu/in Chevy 4 cylinder Mercruiser engines that produce 140 hp and they will make a Model A Ford into a viable driver with plenty of get up and go. Dick
If you look at one of the auction pictures, you'll see a MK IV Continental grille...that would make it a 460, which would be too "new" for a traditional-style build...but I'll still go look just in case.
Damn, I wish this had come up a couple days earlier... There was some cool stuff in there! An O/T boattail Riv and 67 FWD Eldo caught my eye. Pretty awesome suit of armor too. Anyway, best of luck.
brechlrl, You are right about the 430 not being a truck engine. My parents had a 58 Continental 430 with 375 hp. The water pump went out and the mechanic told me that the engine was originally a truck engine. I thought that he knew what he was talking about. My mistake. Dick
That looks like my old 360 truck engine, It is not a 460/429 block. I think the 360 was based on the Ford FE
You are right "not traditional" as they were first used in 68 Lincoln's and rolled off the line in late 67. How odd that this makes them the same "Not Traditional" as all 350 SBC's as 68 was the first for them also. God help anyone who tells the Chevy guys 350's are out.
You got a sharp razor to split that hair, as the SBC family goes back to 1955, where the 385 Ford engine began life O/T... Cam, did you buy anything? J/C what the Eldo went for???
Chrysler made their first Hemi in 51 & still make a Hemi today, Is that family ? Many Ford people consider the 460 an updated MEL which began life in 58. What is your interpretation of Family? I think traditional means just what this board is for - pre 64 - not "family" or any other way to slide past 64. This doesn't work for most Chevy guys.
At some time Traditional will be made before 2000 if not here elsewhere. Using what is at hand is Traditional. I build Model A Fords and that is as traditional as anything and I use drum brakes and wire wheels. I also use 4 cylinder engines however if I can make my cars safer or better and still make them look right I will do it unless the change is unnecessarily complicated or expensive. That is also traditional. Dick
Huh? the 351C/400/429 were all designed in the late 60s, supposedly with a lot of BB Chevy influence when Bunkie Knudsen(sp?)came over from GM & brought some people with him.
What possible part on a 460 has BB Chevy influence ? The staggered valve layout was easily a Chrysler idea before Chevy. I did see a 460 painted Chevy orange once, maybe Bunkie painted it. The 460 was designed in 1966 and was in production by mid 67 and on dealers show rooms in September 1967 I have not seen a 68 351 Cleavland ? was it orange ?
The 370/429/460 engine family also known as the "385" series WAS NOT influenced by the BB Chevy. The block is quite simply a scaled up Windsor style block. Every design characteristic is the same, just bigger. The "twisted" valve cyl heads were designed in that way to facilitate the use of Ford's proven "Tunnel Port" technology without having to locate the pushrod in the center of the intake port. The "335" series which includes the 351C, 351M and 400 engines, ARE NOT GM designs. They are Ford designs that used the same "Tunnel Port" technology as the 385's. The cyl heads on these two Ford engine families pioneered the shallow cant, small chamber, big valve technology that everyone seems to be using now. These head designs were so good that historically, Ford engines that wore them were handicapped in some way in order for the competition to keep up. Today Nascar has allowed all the manufacturers to design purpose built heads and complete engines that utilize the basic design fundamentals of these great 1960's tech Ford Total Performance heads. 302 Tunnel Port for early Trans Am racing. 427 Tunnel Port used for big oval track racing. 429 Cobra Jet with Tunnel Ports Standard 429/460 head with Tunnel Ports
Supposedly the Chr Poly influenced the Chevy & then the Ford. That's why I said supposedly! You could compare the arrival time of Knudsen, but even if he arrived later that doesn't prove if the Chevy did or didn't influence in the design. Main point is I've never heard anyone try to claim the 385 is an updated FE. As far as NASCAR limiting Ford, they also limited Chr because of GM cry baby tactics of threatening to quit participating if NASCAR didn't make it easier for them to compete against Ford & Chr.
As I said in post 13 of this thread I am using what is about 1/2 of a Ford big block in my Model A's. The head below is an aftermarket aluminum 429/460 head that I put on am aluminum Mercury Marine block that was almost sold by Ford Motorsport before the deal with Mercury Marine fell through back in 1986. See the flier below and a picture of the aluminum head and compare it with some of the pictures above. It will make a Model A Boogie and it retains the 4 cylinder look and feel. I tell people that I am putting an overhead conversion in my model A. When asked about what head I am using I tell them it is a 460 Ford head. When they ask how I get it to fit on the Model A block I reply that I have to convert the block to to make it fit. Dick .
I have never heard of anyone claiming a 385 is an updated FE either, I did say that the improved Lincoln (385) that replaced the MEL (old Lincoln) was considered by some to be an improved MEL. It definitely has some of the basic designs used in many Ford motors such as the Windsor as was pointed out earlier. A little research & I found the 351 C was first used in 1970 and the 351-400 M 1975, both well after the 460 Lincoln. NHRA currently has baned the 385 from all F/C & Dragster pro classes as well as the same in nostalgia. Why ?
The earliest 351 blocks I've heard of were cast for Dan Gurney's Can-Am effort in 1967. Also, Ford's 1967 "Calliope" 427 was based on 385 architecture, not the FE; even though the magnesium blocks had 2 cams in them.
Well, no one has posted this yet, the thread is wandering, and the auction is over, so I am going to post up a picture of the COOLEST Lincoln engine made since the old V-12s... The Lincoln Y Block of course.... 1952-1957 in Lincoln's and a Mercury, through 1963 in larger Ford trucks. http://www.ford-y-block.com/lincoln.htm
I had an E-475 410 CI. M.E.L. out of a 1958 Edsel Citation (475 being the torque rating) that I could not give away. I did a bunch of research on these engines, and they were replacements for the ''Y" block and as mentioned earlier extremely heavy. I thought they would make a great hot rod engine the Grist brothers willys ran a M.E.L. and was once the fastest unblown "A" gasser. All I have left is the valve covers.
The MEL series of engines were in fact Y blocks, since the block skirt extended below the mains. The MEL 430 was the engine use in the Lincoln continentals from 1958-1965, hence it's nickname "Lincoln 430" The MEL 430 was the first production V8 that produced 400 HP (1958) The 400 hp version was an engine with a MOON products cast aluminum intake manifold (cast for FoMoCo) with 3 Holley two barrels. It also featured an unusual fuel pump and filter assembly, and a cast aluminum breather assembly. I have never heard the numbers definitively talked about, but the original tripower assembly has generally been kicked around between 800-1000 units. MEL engines were the last series of engines by Ford that had the combustion chamber in the cylinder, not in the head. MEL's are a plank head motor with a 10 degree deck offset, like a Pontiac 409. The combustion chamber is a wedge, and the piston has a step which makes the combustion area even smaller. The original 400hp 430 was (memory) 10.5 to 1 compression. Bore is 4.30 X 3.70 stroke, claimed horsepower was 400 with 500 ft lbs of torque at around 4600 rpm. HUGE amounts of torque, especially down low. Holman Moody successfully raced 430 powered Thunderbirds in the 1959 Nascar season, with Johnny Beauchamp racing Lee Petty to a photo finish in the first Daytona 500. The race was so close, that it took three days to decide the winner, which was Petty. MEL 430's were also used in the 1960 Miami to Nassau boat race in the Bertram entry designed by Ray Hunt. This win catapulted Bertram to fame in the offshore hull business. Because of the entry of the FE line of engines into the market in the late 50's and early sixties, 390, 427 being the notable ones, but 331, 352, and 361 are in the early mix, the MEL series of engines were forgotten. Although very heavy, these engines are capable of immense torque, and excellent "streetable" torque since their curve is excellent from 2000 on up. The downfall of the engine is the rarity of aftermarket speed parts, and the cost of duplicating the proper pistons, which no one makes as a stock item anymore. To have the proper stepped piston duplicated, someone like Wiseco needs to custom forge a set to your preferred compression. Upside? They're cool, torque monsters, and very hard to blow up, since they are extremely heavily built.
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