Roothawg started talking about a digger class a bunch of years ago. Different concept but interesting. Read about it here. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93944&highlight=dragster+limit Nothing ever came of it so I built what I built. Probably never fit in a "class" to race but it doesn't bother me. I'm having fun and learning a ton!
There are a bunch of cars out there that meet the above listed rules, which appear to be taken from the NHRA Heritage Series races. As shown they're also used by the Southwest Jr Fuel Racing Assn. Pretty basic set of rules, if you've looked at some of the classes such as Pro Modified. Car count will be better if you dont go out on another tangent and try to make yet another and more restrictive set of rules such as those suggested by another member. Automatic transmissions are what is out there that will handle the HP without breaking the bank and its just a lot easier (harder is less fun) to have an onboard battery and starter. I have a FED that was built in the late 90s but looks like a time capsule from the 60s, other than the disc brakes. It has a 350 crate motor, runs 5.90 eighth mile on pump gas but the only racing available in our area is bracket racing = to < watching paint dry. I for one would like to see continued growth in this type of racing which should have a strictly enforced, simple set of rules, with all races heads up -- first car to the finish lines wins
To me the whole purpose of the class would be to get back to a variety of engines. Not just another sbc class. Yes, there's a shit load of sbc's out there and they are cheap. But so what. Almosy any idiot can "buy" a sbc chevy an go fast. That would not be the point of this class. In-fact, I would write the rules so the sbc would have a definte disadvantage. But, that's because i hate em. Kida like rats in the inner city. The fuckers are eveywhere.
I'm with you on the belly button thing. I love different. The reality is that different engines will scare a lot of folks and they won't have the guts to build them for HP. You have to be prepared for carnage when making HP.
Yeah I would write the rules to keep it expensive......that way no one will participate. Absolute Genius.
A non-sbc class would keep it interesting. Oh look, ANOTHER 350/383. SBC'z are like GG's- everywhere, every week-end. Poncho-power!
Yeah you know one of the most prolific motors in Jr. Fuel from the 60's.....can't race em cause everyones got one....WTF! thats like disallowing hemis in nostalgia top fuel.... nope can't have em cause theres a ten car field all with them they are boring....Thats just silly
Why not look at a NHRA rule book from about 1970 to 1972 or so, I'm sure someone on the HAMB has one. If I remember correctly the weight break was 3 pounds. I would limit the block and heads to cast iron with stock valve angle with port injectors only. Transmissions (no automatics period) If you want to run a clutch or a crowerglide with a high gear setup thats ok, but why beat your head against the wall, with todays track prep it ain't gonna work even on 100% nitro. Allow a pedal clutch or a centrifigal setup with up to 2 forward manually shifted gears (example 2 speed Lenco, B&J, Clutchflite or clutch turbo etc.). I would also require the cars to look like they were built no later than 1970 except for the NHRA chassis requirements. In other words no high chair cars allowed. I would also allow up to 180" wheelbase. Required, single magneto, single fuel pump and NO electronics of any type. Max tire size 10:00x15. I would also require nitro in the tank, only alcohol allowed would be to lower the percentage. Now go at it and pick it a part.
The history of sbc is SO well known. The low cost (racing?) is another common argument for the sbc. Availability, again well known. It has become redundant to state the documented accolades of the sbc.
No one ever said that the sbc wasn't a "GREAT" engine. History has proven that. Even to those of us who hate em. But, if another class is opend up with rules to support it, then that's exactly what you'd get. More of em. Every moron in town would buy one and then where would you be. If you allow them, then lets say 312 CI is your limit. You could then use a 265 or 283 sbc. LOL, lets see the morons make that one run. LOL, in fact most wouldn't even know what one was. 265..huh? 283...huh? you mean a 350 crate right? Just sayin.............
You would get screwed by the hemi head thing anyway. You know what they say if you can't beat 'em outlaw 'em. Yea I totally understand where you are comming from no one likes to be outrun. You know you start out by making a bold plea for a new class then you want to outlaw anyone who you can't beat. Lets see no canted valves no hemi heads or semi hemi heads and now no SBCs. That is why folks like you should not be allowed to make the rules. Hey I got an idea lets make a new rule that someone who has input into the rules has to make a legitimate pass in there car at least once in a blue moon. BTW I cut my teeth on short stroke small blocks. You talk a big fight, lets see you make the gizzle hopper run, no excuses put yourself in the seat and let fly then come back and talk big.
Well, Root has the 265 in the Fly pretty well figured out. A class is only gonna be successful if enough folks actually build and race. Any idea how many you'd need for the class to be considered successful? Like I said before Beaner, I really don't care, I'm having to much fun.
I appreciate the idea of having a true nostalgia class. I also realize that there are plenty of other options out there besides the sbc. I always look to my buddy flamedabone with his Poncho. But, lets be realistic, no automatics, no sbc. So that leaves direct drive and clutchflites. Lots of both lying around. Now lets build a nailhead for this class and let's see.....we'll drop 6 grand for a motor, then find a Hilborn setup for it.......another $1200....if we are gonna be period correct, then all cars should have magnesium wheels and Olds rear ends.....see where this is going? Might as well buy an enclosed trailer and a new dually.
I love the "idea" of this class....since if I ever get the chance to build a dragster, it would be a mid '60's era Jr. Fuel car....that or a Top Gas car.... However....you try to keep out the SBC and yer just setting yourself up to fail.... An "era correct" SBC, with chrome headers, Hilborn stacks, finned VCs and a Mag is a beautiful thing man.... I like the 150" wb limit idea.....cause anything over @ 160" is ugly anyway.... Question.......would a mild Olds or Nailhead even smoke the tires in an unblown, direct drive car?? I asked this awhile back and the "consensus" was that direct drive was better suited for blown fuel cars.....
im not a racer, but outlawing the sbc seems like a dumb idea.. just a opinion. good luck and hope you have someone to race against. well maybe i should take that back.. as many people on this forum who bash the sbc you would have more than enough different engines combo to make up for the guys who choose to run the sbc.. unless they just blowing smoke to look cool on a public forum and would show up with a sbc too. chris.
I've got to agree with Chris. I'm not exactly rich and had to really save my pennies to build the hemi for my Dragmaster. I built a shorty TH350 since it was the most economical solution and I thought it would be more useable than a direct drive. The prices of nearly any other trans/driveline option were downright scary.
392's were punched to around 450 cubes back in the day, and my 1963 M/T catolog has a 4" stroker crank for a 327, and dont forget 394 olds..... And really do we need transmissions? And as for no sbc? serious? 283's were the backbone of racing in that era. Now i'm not opposed to saying FACTORY heads and Small journal blocks though As for straight cube restrictions on sbc's i'm against that too, I'd love to shoehorn a stroked out sbc 400 crank in a 4" bore 283 block for a budget build.....
This seems like it should be interesting. I learned a lot when my dad was running Jr. Fuel/B with GoodGuys and the NHRA . . . . everyone except one guy was running a SBC, all under 409 ci, all cast iron heads and blocks and 23 degree heads. Injection and alcohol were the only thing allowed. When the dragster my dad was driving rolled (long story) he did mention that he was able to hit the fuel shutoff, although that did nothing to stop momentum . . . . I see some definite pros and cons to some of the restrictions. I probably need to re-read the entire thread when I'm not procrastinating on writing an essay to be able to digest everything. And Mark Skipper, is there nothing you haven't picked up? That top is sexy . . . .
If I read Beep's original post correctly, this is to be a class for the HAMB drags? Well, how many people would build a fuel FED solely for that one event? Maybe the rules should include some penalties for running an SBC and or auto? But really...isn't it all for fun? Everyone gets to run their piece, and who really cares who "wins"?
OK ruther than quote everyone let me just give a simple answer to what is being said here. He is trying to rule out anyone who can out run him. Ya want a JR Fuel Class that is HAMB Drags friendly keep it simple. Sure if you want to limit displacement that is fine, but your better bet is to not limit displacement, give a cubic inch to weight ratio and let everyone that breaks out go into an unlimited class, or AA? Limit your engine choices to traditional engines something available before say '62? or '64? Now you have limited the SBC to a starting place of 283 or 327 inches they will run in their own weight class according to the cubic inch displacement/weight. That pretty much eliminates the SBC running against the slower 383 MEL or a poly headed Dodge running with a 389 poncho etc. To outlaw an engine based on its racing prowess or because you just don't like 'em is just pure unadulterated BS. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and go with a different engine choice to win or you have to figure out a way to make your engine of choice make enough zot to win or you can do what the Ol' Man taught me to do, "if your engine won't go that fast make your chassis go that fast." IE make it lighter, make it go straighter or make it hook better. There is a whole lot more to racing than choosing the right engine transmission combo. Exwestracer The HAMBster was originally a HAMB Drags only class. It is still a popular class at the HAMB Drags and they have raced them in HAMBster class (well HA/GR) at other venues as well. There are some of us who only race at the HAMB Drags and that only sporadically we have our reasons. We still build cars with the HAMB Drags in mind. The HAMB Drags has become a force to be reckoned with. There are a lot of people that keep their eye on what happens there. Ryan started some thing that developed a life of its own. OK I have a question that hasn't come up. We now have classes based on weight V cubic inch displacement. When I was a young man there was a tear down fee or a dispute fee that one racer had to come up with when he believed that the winning racer was up to no good. 200.00 a head as I recall. What is the tear down fee going to be in this new JR Fuel class. The reason I ask is that I could team with a fella that has a chassis nearly done and I just happen to have an engine that is carbs and a pump away from being alcohol ready. If I need to pull a head to prove displacement I want it to be worth my while.
weight to cubic inch would be the best way to go, there is always a set-up that has an advantage, at first you will see all kinds of combinations after the first or second year everyone will migrate towards the winning set-up or drop out, and since day one racers have been stroking their motor( 4x4 283). the car nearest to the lower end of weight break wins Tire rule works as long as it's readily available size.
i would be interested in such a class if the rules werent unrealistic, as junior fuel cars were very light, 950-1150 pounds w/out driver and wheelbase from 140-170 inches, the class was a great class, i weigh in at 1590 with me in it my car was built in 67, as a top/gas top fuel car, still tracing its exact roots, but i have it set up as a JF/B car its period correct, NHRA legal to 7.50 and is 175wb , and it is not ugly because its over 160, i think 180 n under is a realistic wheelbase limit if you want a field.mine was a clutch car obviously but i have a shorty glide, i would come down from northern cali to run at eagle field or wherever but if im axed out for being able to beat the class organizer, thats just lame.....
oh yeah, my engine combo is a 23 degree SBC 398 ci stroker 14.5-1 comp with hilborn injection on 100% methanol, 64 chrys 8.75 rear , i might play around with running 25-30% nitro some day... runs 8.20-8.40s at 160-165mph in the 1/4 and still tuning....
nice car there are a half a dozen cars around here similar to your's, all but one is running a sbc and a powerglide
One problem with weight to cubic inch is most of the tracks have no scales since bracket and index racing took over.
we had a touring circle track series we used the track scales when available but we also had portable scales that we set up in a trailer but was longer to set up level trailer install the ramps with the scales installed it wasn't used often because racers didn't like others knowing how their set up all you need is a level pad and four scales
i was thinking if you had a higher weight for a sbc which would handicap them 4lbs per cubic inch for everything else and 4.5 for small block chevy and set a min weight because a 265 x4.5 =1192lbs and 273x4=1092lbs
The Jalopy Journal
