Pete and Jake's chassis setup

Kindly advise what your opinion on front and rear suspension to go with on a P&J chassis for a 32 deuce. (Most likely a full fendered car).

Front: Hairpin or 4 link? I know Hairpin is traditional but I have read a 4 link will outperform (due to two parallel beefy bars with two separate mounting points).

Rear: Ladder Bars, or 4 link, or 4 link triangulated? Damn, I have read so much contradictory info re. this (!)

Powerplant will be a sbf windsor warmed over and a manual trans.

Thanks!

 

If you run hairpins, run an 'I' beam not a tube axle. If you run 4 bars you can run either axle, most use tube.

 

Get hold of a Pete and Jakes catalog. There is a great section in their catalog (at least in mine from the 90's) that addresses front suspension choices, various steering boxes, and alignment of axle front ends. Information there re-affirms what "stumpy" says above.....Don.

 

Alot of guys say that if you run a tube axle that you have to use a 4 link....because that seems to be the general magazine article ruling on axles and locaters....but a tonne of hotrodders break that rule.

I see no problem with using hairpins on a tube....but if it was me, I'd be using the 4link batwing with bushings on the axle end, and the heavy ford tierod end on the frame mount. Beam axles, when located with hairpins or wishbones, are designed to twist and flex, absorbing and transforming driving forces. The tube will not flex or twist with a solid locator, so common sense says you have to have some movement or play somewhere, in order to prevent things from cracking off. BUT...alot of guys will mount them solid on the axle with a wishbone or hairpins and just rely on the frame mount (tierod or bushing) to take the force.

NOW... getting back to the original question, I don't think there will be a noticeable difference between using a 4 link or hairpins on the front of your hotrod. In racing, adjustable 4 links are used to help with performance, often times unequal 4 links are used. But an equal length 4 link being applied in regular driving is not going to make much of a difference.... Not worth arguing over...just go with what you think looks nice. Hairpins...traditional...4-link...not so traditional, but still used on some early hotrods. I beam axle...traditional....tube axles...well that's complicated! haha. Ford did make an early tube axle, and early race cars used custom made tube axles...but none of them had magnum tube axles until magnum started making tube axles!

Rear setups are way more complicated and confusing, because you need to locate the axle and handle torque at the same time....different setups will make a big difference in how the car works. All depends on what you want. Triangulated 4 links are popular in race cars because of their adjustability...basically you can fine tune how the car launches and also how it stops. Similar adjustments can be made using a straight 4 link.

Tried and true rearend setups for traditional hotrods are....transverse spring, standard shocks, ladder bars that connect in the center of the frame up by the transmission mount and a panhard bar. The ladder bars can take the torque, giving you good traction....and also act as a sway bar to some extent. The panhard keeps the rear end located side to side and the transverse spring with shocks is just traditional and gets the job done.

My vote...forget what you're reading, go with a FORGED beam axle...either original Ford or a new magnum or So-Cal forged axle...not a cast axle...and use either split wishbones or hairpins to locate it. In the rear, pete n jakes ladder bars, used with their dropped tube crossmember. Transverse spring, aftermarket spring hangers, panhard, shocks.

Go to the so-cal speed shop website and look at one of their frames...that'll give you an idea what I'm talking about.

-Steve

 

I would use split wishbones with a dropped original Ford axle in the front, along with
P&J ladder bars and cross spring in the rear. Simple good looking suspension that works.
On a side note. Used to ride with a guy, shortened T touring, nailhead Buick, etc that had a tube front axle and hairpin bones. He had a bag of heim ends under the seat
and used them quite frequently for roadside replacements, when the frame mounts on the hairpins snapped at the shank.

 

Yes, going to run a Super Bell drilled I Beam. Thanks stumpy

Don, I just got their catalog and it is done well. However, the choices make it more difficult for me to decide wheter to stay hotrod purist with hairpins or go with the 4 link. BTW, if you were to build a new chassis, would you go for the Unisteer or stay with the Vega? I've been reading good things about the Unisteer and it seems that there is a fix for the wide turning radius. And the Unisteer might give me a little more room for components. Thanks for your input.

Thanks Steve, you helped me right there . Your recommendations (traditional - with the ladder bars and hairpins) are what Mike Goodman from Honest Charleys typically recommends. Maybe I am just making things more complex than they need to be but the 4 link, in the rear and the front, seems like an IMPROVED setup. Maybe it is not necessary since it will be a street car and not a racer. Reading about ladder bars vs 4 link triangulated has confused me because 4 link isolates the rear axle better when going over irregular surfaces. Also, I've recently seen a lot of chassis builders (on ebay and such) using 4 link rear instead of the ladder bar. Since we're on the P&J ladder bar topic, would it behoove me to use the Walden Speed Shop ladder bar setup? Here is the pic, down at the bottom of page:

http://www.waldenspeedshop.com/jitney.html

"Originally designed by Jake back in his Pete & Jake's days, this kit was redesigned by Jake by moving the bars down ½ inch for more clearance (for the exhaust) between the bars and the body floorpan."

Thanx RICH! "Simple good looking suspension that works". I guess you summed it up right there.

 

Although some will scoff the 4 bar front with a dropped I beam axle and 4 bar rear with coil overs has a smoother ride than the split bones and transverse spring and ladder bars.

I have 2 32's,,one with the conventional 4 bar setup and one with the traditional set up,so I know the difference. HRP

 

HRP, you put me back to sq. one! Why'd you have to do that?! lol

It just makes sense that a 4 link, with it's ability to isolate the moving components of the chassis better with improved geometry, will result in a better ride.

Knowing that you have both, and hearing your preference in ride characteristics being better with the 4 link, what "look" do you prefer? Thanks! and btw you and Randy have been very helpful!

 

Front hairpins
Rear ladder bars with coilovers.

Then tell them to keep their junk front shocks and too short coilovers (rear) and step up to bilsteins or ride tech shocks/coilovers and it WILL ride fantastic.

Contrary to HRP, I have noticed very little difference between 4 bar and hairpin front ends, other than one looks cooler than the other one.

If you are doing disc brakes, I highly recommend the wilwoods (or similar) over the GM iron calipers and brackets. The difference in unsprung weight is about 40 pounds and has a LARGE effect on ride quality.

 

Being traditional ... sounds COOL and all ... but as much as I drive mine ... I want a good ride.





IF ... you are going to run fenders ... the rear 4 bars do not affect the looks of the 32.





I prefer 4 bars on the front and the rear. I have owned other 32's with the buggy spring set-up in the rear and now all my stuff rides on 4 bars.

Unsprung weight ... actually has more effect on the ride than most anything else. Keep the unsprung weight down for a good ride. Both my 32's have a aluminum 9 inch Ford center section ( saves almost 25 pounds ). Both have aluminum driveshafts. The 3W has the lightweight Wilwood disc brake setup. I do not over tire the car. A 235/75 15R on the rear and a small 15 on the front seems to work well.



Your proposed project should be lighter than either of my 32's ... because of your use of a fiberglass body and the SBF weighs a little less than the SBC. That means the ratio of sprung to unsprung weight will be higher ...

Aluminum wheels ... can also reduce unsprung weight

.

 

If you are running an i-beam axle for looks, than hairpins or split bones would be the best for looks and function. In the rear do as RICH B suggests, ladder bars and transverse spring, simple and proven. Triangulated four bar works good, but depending on the look you want may not be the answer. If your set on four bar, i think two lower bars and a wishbone top, one mount on the top of the axle and the other two at the frame is cleaner, simpler and works just as good...imo

 

DLTS: Excellent info and thanks for your advice. I will discuss deleting whatever Pete and Jake's uses for their front and rear shock with Honest Charleys and look into a chrome Bilstein for the front and chrome coilovers for the rear. (I just swapped out the stock Rancho shocks on my F-250 Superduty for Bilstein 5100's and I'm happy with the choice).

I was planning on the build utilizing the Wilwood brakes. Would you opt for 4 wheels discs and power brakes while you were at it, or is it unnecessary for a Deuce? From what I understand the ft. disc/rear drum combo has a better (read:easier) brake feel and responsiveness if I don't go power assist.

You have me thinking about GVW. The aluminum rear center section to shed weight is another possibility, but I have a question. Wouldn't there be a benefit to having that extra weight over the rear axle, especially the pumpkin, in a deuce, for traction and ride stability in re. to vehicle center of gravity, with most of the weight up front and center with engine and trans? I understand the aluminum rim advice, as it is rotating chassis unsprung weight.

Randy, as always, THANK YOU

 

I believe that the 25 pounds saved by the aluminum center section has NO EFFECT on traction or ride stability. Too bad you are so far away ... I would put you in one of my Deuces and let you make up your own mind about the ride and stability ... going by your own backside feedback

 

117harv, thank you also for taking the time to post . By any chance would you have a photo of what you described above? (highlighted by me). Did any of you guys that run ladder bars with a full exhaust have any hair pulling moments with configuring exhaust?

 

Tell me about it. I would much prefer to get the heck off of Long Island! Like Calif. way too many libs. It needs to break off and float way

 

I live about 15 minutes from honest charlies. Mike has helped me alot when i had the same questions. I am running a 4 in drop i beam front/ hairpins with pan hard bar, pete and jakes rear ladder bars, and Transverse rear spring, shocks on all 4 corners. I also bought a brookville a frame and am in the process setting it up. If it wernt for the hamb and mike i wouldnt have started this extream project. I had just a body.

 

I know that's what Mike from HC prefers. He's a traditionalist and is pointing me to hairpins/ladder, but open to suggestions. I see some long telephone conversations upcoming lol.

How far along is your project? Yeah, this forum rocks! Would you have done anything differently (loaded question, I know ). Interesting that you would mention the P&J frame with the Brookville because that is exactly the direction I am leaning at this point -until I get the reality $$ sandwich lol. Did you leave the Brookville unchopped? Thanks man!

edit * - just saw that you have a build thread - cool!

 

Instead of having two mounts on top you just combine them and make one. Since you are eliminating one of the points you have doubled the stress to one. A larger bushed end would be a great addition with this appl. Here is a pic of a kit offered.

With a triangulated four bar, all bars are at aposing angles to stop side to side movement. As the wishbone angles are more severe, it alone will keep the rear centered and the lower links can be run straight with the frame rails if so desired, but abit of aposing angle wouldn't hurt.


Another variation of the three link would be two long bars up to the trans. area and a third in the middle off of the diff. This is common with the banjo/transverse spring set-up using origonal ford rear wishbones when the torque tube is removed. This would work just as good with later diffs too.

 

I would like to throw my hat in this theoretical ring but you have to ride with my wife....if I was smarter I would insert the image here.


As for the transverse leaf, there is nothing wrong with them but you give up a lot in the ability to tune ride quality and ride height.

 

Fixed it for you

 

Just my 2c....

A hot rod is all about the look, if you are running sans fenders use side steer, like cowl or Mustang steering.

Heck, my latest coupe is full fendered and I still put wishbones and Mustang steering on the front (OK I cheated with four bars on the rear...). But that's just me.

If you are concerned about ride quality, buy a Honda.

 

Nope, mine rides pretty damn good and so does Randy's I bet. It's not a trade off. A traditionally themed car can be built and not ride and handle like shit......

 

thnx DLTS -for the pic too, looked like fun

thanks harv, for explaining and the pic.

Thanks guys for your thoughts and input. Learning curve is steep here for me- I'm a noob. Another question if I may. Would a 4 link P&J front susp. and a P&J ladder bar for the rear be an option? Sorry to beat a dead horse but there seems to be two general schools of thought here and you guys each seem heartfelt on your positions.

 

Since you are looking at Pete and Jakes, call them, talk to Jason Slover and tell him what your goals are for this chassis. He can help.

 

I agree with just about everything said above with the exception of the tube axle stuff. I know it's been done a hundred times and everybody has a friend that has been running one for years, but it's just plain stupid to risk it. I've had a number of cars in that have had serious frame issues because of it, mostly broken or bent frame brackets. You're essentually wringing a chickens neck, (although it does kind of turn the frame into a giant stabilizer bar of sorts).

My opinion on the whole thing is ask to drive a friends car that has the suspension you are thinking about using. Each one drives and feels totally different. I personally love the feel of an early Ford crosspring/wishbone setup. It feels like a hot rod to me. If I wanted a Camaro I'd drive one. This isn't for everyone. I just built a very traditional pickup for a fellow who has been bringing it back while we continue to soften the springs because his girlfriend can't put her makeup on while he's driving.

Everybody's needs are different.

 

As stated above Jason at Pete and Jakes is very good at what he does and is only a phone call away.
I have a complete rolling chassis from his shop 4 bar front and rear.
They are always there to answer questions for you even if it's not about the stuff they sell.

 

If you do run Hairpins on the front and fenders be sure to get the shorter style for full fendered cars .....

 

Another good place to call is Honest Charley in Tennesee they sell all the Cali stuff , so cal, pete and jakes , super bell etc. (most of it in stock) and will save you in shipping to New York vs coming froming California

 

Call placed...awaiting Jason's call back. TY!

Thanks KOZ

Thanks djust !

Thanks, Mayor: Yes, planning on fenders in the future as $$ permits. If I go as low as possible on frame for hairpin mounts, or use a drop down bracket, would I still be able to go with the preferred longer hairpins for a full fender car?

Already dealing with Mike Goodman from H.C. Thanks man!

 

I still believe your gonna have to run the shorter pins . But I would def ask one of the "deuce" experts on here thats running a fendered car. Im building a hiboy so it wasnt a major concern on my build ....