I've been around this hobby for a very long time. I've bought and sold a few cars, but have mostly bought and held them. It's not uncommon for me to keep a vehicle 10 or more years (even the ones that I've purchased as a new).... If I like something, I tend to hang on to it. I told my wife of 38 years that she might want to keep that in mind! After my emotion, inexperience, and youth led me to be the "prey" a few times, I figured out that there are good people and bad people everywhere. But, anywhere there is the opportunity for large amounts of profit, there will be the people that are motivated by greed. I've met many, many nice people over the years, while spending time in this "old car hobby". I've also learned that when talking about low life SOB's, most every one of them have or will deal in real estate, guns, knives, and old cars! They soon get weeded out of the "business of the day", after they've burned a few people and word gets around. In today's web based business world, they sometimes get to burn many more people before word gets around. For all the hatred of Ebay, I like the FEEDBACK rating because it lets you get an idea of how this person has done business in the past. It's no garrantee that the future deals will be 100% truthful, but it's at least an indicator of how they generally do business. I've made a few VERY long trips to purchase something that was absolutely nothing like what the seller described. But, I've also made a few trips to find that "it" was MUCH better than described. I'm always pleased when a buyer tells me that the item that I've sold them is better than they were expecting. If any of you have watched "Holmes on homes", you know that the home construction business attracts some of the same people that have been described in this thread. There are millions of stories of home building/repairs/additions where the owners were cheated badly by people out to make a quick buck and move on.
Great article, Ryan. I think the type of classic car dealer you are describing is in the majority though, and not the minority. I can't STAND some weasel car lot guy spitting his "retro is big right now!" or "it's a true survivor, CA car, rare color, etc." assuming that I'm some chump who knows nothing about cars. Assume I already know everything there is to know about what I'm looking at before you start spewing lies, buddy. Or how about this....you're sitting at a stop light, parking lot, gas station, etc., not even interested in or looking to buy a car....but because you love the hobby and cool cars, you give the guy an appreciative "nice car man", and I get the obligatory "it could be YOURS!!!", "for enough cash you can take it home!!" or "these sell for a fortune on ebay!" Thanks a lot asshole, you just made me go from midnight to six. LOL ~Chris
Several people have alluded to this but no one has said it clearly. A seller has to decide whether they are going to sell to a dealer or to new owner/collector. No one sells to a dealer if they can sell to a new owner. If you can't find someone who actually wants to own your item, you may be forced to sell to a dealer if you need the cash. In most collectable businesses a dealer will only pay you 50% - 75% of what they think they can sell it for. Most are closer to 50%. The crooks pay less than 50%. Same goes for a buyer. Do you want the convenience of buying from a dealer who has done the searching and paperwork for you? Or do you want to do your own work and very likely save some money. It used to be finding the right car was very difficult and broker/dealers were one of the few options. As Ryan states, now technology makes doing our own research much much easier. It also makes us perhaps more prone to find something we can't live without and make a decision before we are fully educated. Almost always a mistake. Bottom line: anyone who enters into a business transaction for which they are unprepared can expect to be dissatisfied. Ignorance is costly.
I have to agree that the classic car dealer IS providing a service by gathering a bunch of interesting cars under one roof, but the service is probably more for the uninformed and uneducated folks who want to be a part of the old car hobby without doing quite as much legwork as you or I would. When I ran our local car club I was constantly asked "Do you know where I can find a ______" (insert old car description here). My response was almost always "Hang out with the guys and girls in the club and go to the meetings and events and I'll almost guarantee that you'll find out who in the club is interested in the same cars that you are, and they might have one for sale or know someone that does." If they weren't willing to invest the time in their education, then they really have no right to bitch when they buy a cloned car or a rusty POS that has been packed full of bondo. (Same rule applies when Junior fails to graduate from high school and complains that the only people that want to hire him want him to make cheeseburgers for the drive thru for minimum wage, but don't get me started on that!!!) I do enjoy walking around some of the classic car dealers just because it's like a visit to a museum that you don't have to pay admission to, but I also enjoy pretending that I really don't know much about musclecars and ask questions about an old Dodge or Plymouth and listen to their spiel about how the car is 100% original and how grandma only drove the R/T to church and back... and then I start asking questions about why the data plate has code D32 for the transmission when it should be D21 if the car REALLY came from the factory with the 4-speed...) Let the stammering and double talk begin!!! I've bought my fair share of turds that have been misrepresented or that have been fluff & buffed to appear better than they are, BUT usually when the seller puts a realistic price on their car or truck and if they tell me their honest assessment of their car I'll almost always pay their price without haggling. When I sell something I've made it my policy to walk you around the car and to point out every flaw that I know about. Whether it's rust, dents, things that don't work properly, etc. Then you can make an INFORMED decision and determine if what I have is worth what I am asking. It all applies to my favorite saying... "What you send around will eventually come around."
Will, if I had the spare cash, I would have taken that LB Stude truck off your hands a while back. Can't believe no one has snatched that up yet. That is a gorgeous looking truck. I wouldn't even care that you were a dealer. Wish I could afford it.
Well, I can feel a bit with the article... I saw a car on Craigslist for 2600 dollars, it was already sold when I mailed and then it went on the HAMB classifieds for 10.000 dollar. It eventually sold on eBay for about 6000 dollar. more than 3000 dollar profit with no effort and a car freak with less to spend to get it the way he wants. And boy I wanted the car bad. I was willing to pay 5000 but it wasn't enough for the guy who bought it, probably for way less than 2600.
Last year when I decided to look for an old car to fool with I searched Ebay, Craigslist, etc. for a '56 Ford. I found one on the 'bay for a reasonable price that looked good so I asked the seller (a dealer) for some shots of the underside. I got the usual excuses, "we don't have a lift", "the dude with the camera is off today", etc. I really wanted the car so I pressed harder and told them to just stick the camera under the car and shoot. Finally they did, I received several shots of the frame and 2 that showed in the background the insulation from the floor hanging down. I walked away because I wondered what else they were hiding. Had they been upfront I may be driving a '56 Ford now. When I bought my '59 at a swap meet the guy was a dealer also. He gave me the blah, blah, blah, but the car is solid so I was interested. I came back later, and looked again when he was gone to lunch. I went back again to deal. He started the blah, blah, blah about another guy coming back later to buy it and several interested parties. I offered a couple of grand below his asking price. He acted shocked and offended. I said the magic word, "cash." He gives me the, "Oh my God, I'm losing money on this deal" speech. So I gave him the "here's what a pile of money looks like walking away" speech, and he bit. The car is mine. Here's why I wasted your time typing all of this, you make the deal. Good, bad, indifferent. It's your deal to make. I have gotten took a few times in my younger years, and I've also been on the "better" end of a few shady deals. Always remember, you can walk away, you can live without whatever it is, and the always famous - they made more. If you ain't buying, these guys go out of business and prices drop. Supply and demand.
Ryan, Your article is a combination of reality and a bit of of hyperbole, imo. What you totally neglect is human nature. There is NO activity in which human beings are involved that does not lend itself to misuse and abuse by those engaged in it. Anyone who has dealt with the public for any length of time knows very well that unethical, greedy and lying behavior is not limited to those in the selling side of the scenario. Let me hasten to add, most of the public just want what they are paying for and are satisfied to get it. But there are plenty who are themselves "crooks" and take full advantage of the business person's vulnerabilty to accusations and criticism from a "customer", who, by the way, is seldom scrutinized. ANY person who is engaged in the world has an duty and an obligation to themselves to educate themselves about the subject at hand and to exercise some degree of judgement when making a decision, buying or selling. If they are not willing, or not capable, of doing that, then maybe they should not be in the transaction. I have said this before and I will say it again.......The Double Standard is Alive and Well............where to look for it? In the mirror. As someone else in an earlier post pointed out. Just read the posts on any number of threads from HAMBers about the "big score" they made buying something they thought they 'stole' and in the next breath want to know how much they can get for it. That is not to say that is, in itself, unethical. But how do you square the expreessed attitude toward "others", individuals or "dealers" doing it when you are doing EXACTLY the same thing. By 'same thing', I am not referring to misrepresentation, THAT is unacceptable and indefensible. If you eliminated every person from this forum who bought low and sold high(er), you would soon have no forum members. Perhaps you too would be absent. Ray
You really wanna meet some scumbags? Try the restoration industry!! Pride and craftmanship can be found in a can these days. That's what TV does for ya. "Well they do it on TV in a week." "Ok, go home and watch TV." Yes, I have indeed had that discussion with a guy.
Exactly,nobody put a gun to anybodys head to do a deal.If a buyer starts making shit up about my car,I just tell them to leave.I don't want to be part of a bad fantasy.And that 25 to 50% markup that the east coast guy mentioned,that's a pipe dream.Try 10-20%.Once in a while you'll get a big moneymaker,but with all of the internet Einsteins,you don't get to steal much.And reputation is everything.I'm probably best known in the Datsun community and I don't want anybody thinking I'm going to rip them off.However,if they want to rip me off (TRY)on a good day,I'll send them packing.On a bad day,that's where the good stories come from .I also own a website, midwestguntrader.com , and the dealers are always better priced than the average joes.Non-professionals and psuedo dealers have a tendency to get caught up in the hoopla and overprice their chit.I live in a reality based world.
Wow. Perfect example. http://topnotchvehicles.com/v-web/gallery/album06 $6,995...1964 Oldsmobile F-85 Sedan " <CENTER>A very capable young man enjoyed driving and improving this car. He put lots of time, energy and money into making it a fun driver. Economic hardship due to unemployment caused him to sell it. He installed a nicely detailed 350 Olds from a Cutlass. The transmission is now a Turbo 350. With a free-flowing exhaust system, it sounds great. It will chirp the tires hitting second gear. The entire braking system, steering and suspension have been updated. The power brakes stop the car quickly. The steering is one finger easy. The interior sure is nice. It appears to be original. It is likely this car was garage kept, so the sun didn't ruin the upholstery. The body is very solid. The paint isn't great, but much of it is original. He bought the car from an Southern Illinois dealer that did a poor job of touch up. This was originally an A/C car, but the engine mounted components are not installed. It is very likely it could be made to work. I have driven this car. It is fun and safe. It handled 100mph very comfortably for me. I am confident the money invested far exceeds our asking price. Certainly he did not earn a dime for his time. But he is proud of his efforts and enjoyed every minute of it. You will too. "</CENTER>
Yep, agreed. I've just read this whole thread so I'm a little bit foggy on the precise wording of the article that started it, but little old ladies dying without getting their patio built, classic car buyers losing their families and turning into junkies because they bought an old car that wasn't as good as they thought it was going to be? I'm kind of feeling sorry for anyone who has had a drama thread closed or deleted. The world is full of heartless bastards, in all walks of life, the best you can do is try and keep your wits about you and accept that sometimes you win sometimes you lose. Paul
1. I was a classic car dealer for 28 years. Ryan makes a very valid point. 2. It is amazing to me that so many of you can't comprehend what he has written to see that point.
Ryan I believe survive is the key word here. If you recall in my post I mentioned that there were or perhaps are dealers that are just trying to feed their families. That would be survive, at least in my understanding of survival. I think that in our brave new world an honest dealer can survive, I am not sure that honest is the best choice of words but it will suffice. The reason I believe that is because I don't believe that I am a total oddity. At least not when it comes to core values. It is a funny thing but one of the "classic car dealers" that has had his feathers ruffled is the one of whom I spoke when I said that there is one from which I would buy sight unseen on his word alone. We have had dealings before and from those dealings I have come to the conclusion that he is one to be trusted. We are smart enough in general to seek those people out, they make one of us a deal done with integrity. Someone contacts one of us and says I am looking for something along these lines and we say well I did a deal with this fella or that and he treated me right. Now that "dealer" has a new customer. He sells something to customer number two who has a good experience and so on and so forth. I have a tendency to deal with the same people over and over on the things that I require for this hobby, be it cars or parts or services. I don't like to do business with someone that I don't know or don't know someone else that is doing business with the same person. I will be the first one to tell you that I am a misfit but I do believe that there are a lot of people out there just like me when it comes to business dealings. Survival in this world comes down to one thing in my book, that would be building a good reputation. I don't think that has changed at all for a very long time. Sure there will always be shysters out there and they will always flourish P.T.Barnum pointed that out, but at the end of the day it is those honest people that will be the real winners. The shyster and the honest man will both come to the end of life perhaps the shyster will have more but the little that the honest man has will be clean.
I agree. It was easy to relive a different scenario to the original story. The core issue is profit at the expense of integrity. My issue is how some seem to last for decades that put profit 1st. My buisness model has always included telling it like it is and asking yourself "If this was mine...". The profit is automatic if you embrace that. The profit is also years in the making. Not a single "Honest Joe" became an overnight success. But they remain and grow old in their chosen directions and can sometimes pass along their standards. Collector car utopia? Sure, why not.
I feel there IS a place for honest classic car dealers in this new connected world. And it involves selling to the entire planet... America is "classic car rich" and the rest of the world wants them as they are "classic car poor" comparitively this disparity creates greater demand and therefore higher value. I feel the future of the dealer selling to LOCALS will die a slow death as a result of online locating serices and auction sites. However overseas buyers are takin serious gambles of sending thousands of dollars site unseen to a private person with no reputation to uphold. Many would feel far safer dealing with a switched on, honest dealer with good webite and an online identity in online forums and would therefore be happier to pay a slightly higher price for piece of mind and legwork. One based close to a port like Long Beach would quickly gain an excellent word of mouth reputaion amongst overseas hambers and would make some good money in the process. So there is a need and room for the classic car dealer, those who adapt will flourish and those who refuse to change will sink, hopefully sooner rather than later.
Ok, I'll do it for those not familiar: Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail Two books by the good doctor, the late Hunter S Thompson, worth reading. It's his picture on top of the post. Then you may enjoy the point of Ryan's occasional "gonzo" posts so much more. Satire with an edge. And Ryan is good at paying homage to HST's style, but you wouldn't know it from the reactions. Car dealing is a touchy subject I guess. But that is what Thompson did best, make readers think about controversial subjects from a different perspective, and get reaction. So at 11 pages and running, I'd say it worked. End of literature lecture. Sorry.
Hmm, i see more than a few 'gut reaction' replies - could that be from guilt i wonder? maybe Roauls' thoughts a little close to home? I can even give you the name and whereabouts - Champion Motorsports, Purcell Virginia - of such a dealor. Go on the internet and check them out, they have pics of the cars in the lot. Ryan nailed it. Hunter Thompson, RIP (well as peacefull as a guy that liked to shoot the flower pots off John Denvers' front porch can rest).
Are you angry because he listed it for sale for $7K? You asked $3500. You agreed to $3100. That's only $400 less than your asking price. What's the problem? You say he "beat you down on price" and I would disagree. You allowed him to talk you into selling it for not too much less than your asking price. The key sentence here is "Well, I settled with him for $3100." You made the decision. No one held a gun to your head. That's fact. What he does after you sell the car is his business. If he wants to part it out and scrap the hull, it's his to do with as he pleases. If he gave you your original asking price of $3500 without bargaining, would you be happy? Or would you still be mad that he is trying to sell it for $7K?
Careful with the ether though. It can put you over the top, and into a very bad place, making Circus Circus a macabre horror show of Caligulan proportion...
Go back and read my post again. I said this is the norm for the 'collectables business.' That means anything from guns to toys to watches to you name it; not just cars. The dealer will often first offer you 50% - 75% of what he can sell it for. Based on most of the posts in this thread, that appears to be accurate for the 'classic car' business as well. I'm not saying a car dealer clears 50-100% on everything they resell, since they obviously have other costs. I've had dozens of dealers of various kinds straight-up tell me "I'll give you 50% of the book value" when the 'book value' was exactly what they were listing their inventory for.
I understand completely what Ryan is pondering. I debated the points for the sake of arguement but the overall question was not lost on me. I do think that a good, honest, dealer offers a lot to this hobby though. JH
I think these two statements are contradictory: "he feels the car was only worth $3000." "he has the car listed on his website for $7000 "
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