tell me your experience. A coupe with F1 box

okay fellas so i did the f1 box with the model a flange conversion. looks real nice, but i finaly got to get my front end all together so i tested out the steering.

well it turns right pretty good but its very hard to turn it left. is this common?

i thought that if i had not got the flange/bushing straight when i welded it it would cause this but then i thought, if it did how coem when i lift the tires of the ground it steers just fine?

with the full weight of the small block on its own wheels it takes two hands and a very hard jerking motion to get her to turn right. i dont think i messed anythign up when i did the flange, and if i did, wouldnt it be hard to turn period? not just right?

 

Are you rolling it while you're turning it?

 

no, and i know that they need to roll to turn well, but it turns relativly easy to the left compared to the right.

my pop was saying that since its side steer turning right may be more difficult cause of the setup.

just to add that it is all new parts, new tie rod sleeve/rods,new drag link all is fully adjustable. everything seems to be fine its just very tought to get her to turn left compared to right. maybe its just that way?

this car has never had steering so its not like i know whats the norm,but i was just worried something is wrong since it is much harder to turn the wheels left. i did just put 600's on the front as well.just have to realy wrench on the steering wheel to get it to turn, and it happens if the wheels are straight and i turn left, or if i turn it all the way right,from lock its hard to turn it back left to straight. but i dont get why it would be easy to go left.

 

Jack both front wheels off the ground at the same time... If it still binds when turning to the right, disconnect the tie rod and try again. Then the drag link. You should be able to determine the source of the binding by the process of elimination. When you find the source, check it out and determine what you have to do to correct it... Good luck...

 

it does fine with the wheels jacked up.

just when i put her down it seems stupid hard to just turn right, im guessing since it dont turn hard when its off the ground its probably just how its going to be.

 

Then It should be fine... Welcome to way it was before power steering...
The only condition that has changed between the wheel's off the ground and wheel's on the ground is that you have introduced friction between the tires and the pavement, To reduce steering effort caused by this friction you could shorten the length of the pitman arm, increase the diameter of the steering wheel, or both... There is a whole section about pitman arm length and it's effect on steering effort in the Bishop/Tardel book on page 45...

 

haha,i drove my grandpapi's 53 studebaker with straight axle and manual steerign but its not as hard to turn as my coupe. i do know that it is hard steering, just didnt know its THAT hard. knowing this for some reason i cant sleep at night from the pure excitment and ideas i have for the car and that one (drive) we all consider sacred,

 

Something is wrong if it turns hard from full lock. I say that because most people run lots of caster, and heavy caster would help it steer back to center.


Are you sure you have the worm gear shimmed correctly? It almost sounds like the worm is too tight, but, that won't explain one direction stiffness. I'd check that first though. I'd try loosening the lower bearing plate.

 

lower bearing plate? hmm..i think i know what you mean but im not possitive.

yeah i dont get why its only hard to turn right. id hate to take it back out of the car again but it just seams unbearably hard.

 

okay so i went out and unloosened a few things, well everything and no difference, after messign with it, there has to be something about the box, its just to hard to even be driven. it takes to hand on the right side of the wheel wit ha very hard yanking motion just for it to move to the right. im sure manual steering isnt supposed to be THAT hard. ill take the column back out and maybe sand the bushing or somethign to get a bit of clearance.

 

sorry so many posts, i just took off the drag link and the steering box spinds like butter, and i also grabe the tires and turned the car manualy (jacked up) and it turns fine. just seems when its hooked up it wont turn right...what gives?

 

are the joints greased?

 

Is there any way we can see some pictures of your set up.i have a f-1
in a 32 sedan, and had some clearance problems. Ended up having to redo
the arm.

 

hitchhiker-yeah only thin that isnt is the two tie rod ends at the spindles, but with the drag link off the two front wheels turn very nice.

i just got done with it. took the column back out (have to slide the shaft partway out jsut to get the column out) took the box all apart, and its fine, i re-installed it, and it with no drag link spins just fine as well,no binds. so im stumped. i did find the shaft rubbing in the frame hole a bit, i reamed it, now everything is clearing, but its still hard to turn. but everything works correctly so i guess its just how it is. i thought i had got the bushing messed up in the box but turned out not.

 

what kind of ends do you have on the drag link and tie rod?

 

Taking the load off by unhooking the link or jacking up the wheels means nothing if there is an internal problem with the gears or preload. If the pitman shaft is not running exactly 90* to the worm, or if the bearings are too tight on the worm, it will cause it to steer hard with a full load on the box. Tight bearings can sometimes cause the column to groan as you fight it.

Jack it up again. Now with wheels straight, see if you can turn the wheel a few inches each way without feeling ANY sort of drag at all. It should be free as can be.

What I said yesterday about it still steers hard by starting at a full turn, the caster should "help" it to steer "back to center" better, compared to starting with wheels straight ahead.

At this point, not seeing the box mods in person, I am wondering if the welded piece is not perfectly aligned.

And like was said, put up some pics of the draglink, etc.

 

Are your kingpins greased? Could one or both be binding when turned in one direction and not the other when weight is on them?

I had an F1 box in my Model A coupe 35 years ago and it steered very easily

25 years ago, I had a '53 F100 that was a bear to steer, until I replaced the kingpins. After that, I could easily steer it with one hand.

That's where I would go with it.

 

man thats got me stumped. i have a 30 coupe with an f1 box. its hard to steer parked in either direction. it should be hard, like your gonna break off your steering wheel. mine was originally done in the early 60s. no weld on flange simply cut and tapped. it seems like something in the box itself or maybe the position of the pitman arm.

 

yes f&j, there is no problem turning it with the wheels traight and jacked up.

i took the box all apart. the shaft is aligned and is not binding in the box, i took it out and turned it by hand.

i guess its just how hard it is.

arkie, its not the kingpins. of course i greased them. as i said i can turn the wheels very easy with the car up.

 

Put up some pics, because something is wrong.

If you need two hands when parked, that is not right..especially if in one direction it is much worse.

No, I am not using side steer, but my car has a very heavy early Olds rocket, with 6.70/15, and I can turn it with one hand easy when parked.

My box is an old Ross without a roller on the sector shaft; it is called worm and peg,.... so a worm and roller like yours, should steer better than mine.

 

its just 46 spindles, dropped stock arms, a brand new adjustable drag link, and a lowered speedway top arm. yes there is some angle on the drag link, but i lowered it as much as i could without it hitting the axle, nothing rubs. took the whole box apart, worked pretty smooth, wheels also turn smooth with no drag link so i cant imagine what it could be, everything checks out.

ill try to upload a pic

 

I wonder if it warped when you welded it up? Did you put a new bushing in it after converting to the A end?

 

With the drag link disconnected and the wheels on a cement floor. Grab a front wheel and turn it lock to lock in both directions. Is it the same or harder in one direction?

 

just found it, the box is just slightly crooked when all bolted up, whe you turn right it puts strain on it because the pitman is trying to move so far out...or so it looks to be..

brent-i thought that to but as i posted i just took it all apart and it does not bind anywere. sector shaft spins nice in the box.

 

chopt top, it has nothing to do with that. i didnt shorten the arm......

F&J- after i seen the box was tweaked on the frame i spaced it out, then the arm would hit the wishbone just slightly, so i bent it out, has a nice curve now,everythign clears. it hardly helped any. it has to be the box like you were saying. what shoulf i do to get the sector shaft to spin free under load. i took the box out already and it spins fin by hand with no load. im guessing when you apply force to one side the shaft and box tweaks just a hair, just enough to bind inside. should i ream out the bushings a bit?


update. just took the box and column out again. it looks like the flange of the the box (the stock a piece thats welded on) is a bit tilted. but yet the sector shaft that the pitman connects to does not bind in the hole. theres 2 options, cut it back apart, or shave the flange straight, but if i shave it, it will be crooked if i cut the the piece back off. i dont get how it could be a little crooked if the shaft can spin free....i suppose cut the a flange off and see if i can straighten it out? its been joined in the middle were the 2 bushings are not touching inside.

 

If you can see that the two welded parts are not aligned, I am going to say that the sector/pitman shaft is not at the correct angle inside the box where it rides on the worm teeth.

To me, that might make sense that it steers harder one way.

Reaming the bushings is not the way. You really need to get that pitman shaft to be where it used to be, as far as the angle of the pitman shaft and the worm shaft.


Without us seeing the pieces in our own hands, it is hard to tell you how to get it aligned back to perfect. I think you need to cut it apart, and then try your best to figure out where the outer piece needs to be.

Take your time on set up...rather that get it wrong again. There must be a way to get it right with some studying.

 

check the spindles when you bent them down for clearance is the cross streering bar hitting the wish bones mine was doing that making it hard to turn one way or the other

 

F&J, the welded part is aligned with the box,but it looks like the flange is just a hair off, meaning possible i grinded it to mate flat but grinded it crooked. if that makes sense. so it mated flat to weld but it wasnt flat.

but the sector shaft spins so free when its not under load, and the shaft is tight snug and a good fit in the bushings. im unsure how to get it right since i have to bolt the flange to the car and get my angle for teh column drop as well. my motor is in now so this is all jsut seeming impossible now. pretty bummed out now i see no way of my own to fix it and i was ma king great progress on the car...

lorodz-as i said before ill say again. NOTHING is rubbing anything. its something with the box.

 

Maybe I misunderstood "where" you cut the F1 box ?

When you cut the F1 box; did you cut it and end up with only one pitman arm bushing still in the box, and the outer pitman bushing still in the flange?

-OR- did you just grind off the flange of the F1 and left BOTH F1 bushings still attached to the box?



If you cut it in half with one bushing needing to be welded back on, then it would be very hard to get both bushings aligned perfectly during welding.


But, if you just ground off the flange and both F1 bushings are still in the same place, then I keep thinking that the worm shaft bearings are too tight...or...maybe the roller teeth or worm teeth are worn and binding under a load.


I do understand what you say about the flange not sitting flat on the frame. I have seen people use washers to fix that. You may need to file the washers so they are tapered, not flat.

Another thing; Let's say you tighten the box flange to the frame, but leave the dashboard column clamp off. Do you have to force the upper column over to the dash clamp? If yes, that is not good. Any bow in the column will cause a bind under load, even though it turns fine when the drag link is unhooked.

Same is true if the worm gear bearings are too tight. It will turn OK disconnected, but bind real bad under a load.


If all these things are OK, you need to eliminate the front end parts to find out what part is binding. Can you disconnect the drag link from the pitman arm, then have someone hold the pitman arm with a big pipe wrench to put a load on the box while you turn the steering wheel? If you can feel the box still binding this way, then you will know it is the box, and not a problem of how you set up the front end parts.

 

listen to f&j. you must be certain that it is a box problem or a front end problem.my money is on the box being screwy. u can always get another box and start over. my steering box will not come out with the motor in place, so i know it adds some difficulty.i am in the middle of the same project with motor sitting on the floor.