Why is basecoat and no clear bad?

I seem to have heard some debate on this. I want a satin finished midnight blue (possibly with a bit of pearl) without having to do a basecoat clear coat. Can I achive this with single stage paint or by just shooting basecoat (on a base coat clear coat system) How much pearl would I need to add to single stage paint to make it satin or would this not work? Help. How does Mr Cole Foster do his? Anyone.

 

you could use single stage paint with flatting agent in it to get the satin look. depending on what paint system you use. base coat will not hold up to ultra violet light when there is no clear used.

 

I will do a dark ruby red metallic with satin finish on my Merc this month.
Some years ago I've tried to use either flattener in the clear coat or simply a
matte clear coat, but it makes the brightness of the color get a bit dizzy
or "milky". So now I will use simply the base coat with hardener. I think the
brand Glasurit works fine with this. The you'll still have the pearl and metallic
metalflakes "in the open" and nothing to stop them for their "glow". I will
check this out real soon and could get back to you with how it worked
and also to give you an exact recipe for it. But i think you add about 20-30%
hardener to the basecoat. Don't know if you need to loose some of the
thinner because of this, but I'll let you know.

 

On my car, I run a Sikkens paint with a 50% flattening agent to get the desired finish and it has lasted 10 years so far, and you can wash it, wax it whatever and it always looks the same finish.

 

No clear = no protection. Base coat paint is not made to withstand the elements. It is absorbant, so the clear adheres to it, so it will absorb water...rusting what's underneath. It also won't hold up to repeated washings, and forget about trying to polish, or remove stains, tar, etc.
They now make satin finish clear, for longer lasting finishes. Prolly expensive, though.

 

There is one paint supplier now who makes a "flat" clear so you can have the best of both worlds. I don't remember which paint company is making it but some phone calls to the paint stores will probably get the info. There has got t be a HAMBer who knows.

 

Any pictures of your ride?

 

Cole Foster is prepping those vehicles just a if they are going to be painted glossy. The hitch is he's flattening his clears. Shops have been doing these thing for sometime (ie: bumper cover and headlight surrounds), but Cole made that application work in the Kustom world.

Like Slag said, basecoat won't hold up to exposure to sunlight's ultraviolet rays. It becomes brittle and powdery over time much like a heavily oxidized car. The finish will fly off at the car wash was easily too.

Reverend Jake

 

I want to maximize my chances of success and so I and trying to keep it simple. Base coat clear coat seems like it gives me one more chance to mess up the works.

 

To get the best protection and strongest withstanding you need a clearcoat
on a base coat. That's a fact. But you will definitely lose the brightness if
you add flattener or pre-flattened clearcoat. There are some brands that
says they will have a great withstanding only by using hardener to the
basecoat, so I need to check it out.

Sikkens had a flat clearcoat when I used it over 10 years ago.

If I need to re-paint my car in five years, but have a much greater glow,
I still wanna try. Then I'll be tired of that color anyways.

 

Not quite so. Coles red chevy truck is basecoat only. No clear.

 

First of All: You have to remember it's going to be flat. Which means it's not going to show AS many flaws. You have to be patient with this stuff. If you prep correctly and watch what you're doing, you'll be fine!


Reverend Jake

 

The three biggest reasons that using just basecoat is not such a hot idea:

1. Basecoat has no ultraviolet protection (no sunscreen). This meas that the UV rays will break down the paint basically turning it back into powder form.
2. Basecoat is porous (like chopolds said). It will absorb all kinds of nasties and be a real bitch to get clean.
3. Basecoat is not durable at all. Adding some hardener to it can help, but it was never designed to resist chips and scratches.

If your worried about "clouding up" the pearl, spray the the car in a your desired color and then add the flattener and pearl to the topcoat. This keeps the pearl on the surface. You could also just spray the car in a single stage urethane with flattener added. Experiment on a test panel to be sure that you have the correct ratio of flattener to achieve your desired amount of sheen.
PPG has a pre-flattened clear called "Flexed-n-flat". This particular clear is urethane based and does not tend to have the "clouding" affects that adding flattener to egular clear has. You could still add the pearl to the Flexed-n-flat to really bring it to life in the sun.

 

I've had cars with metallic paint on which for some reason the clear coat had come off. On this areas where the basecoat was exposed you could almost rub it off with your hands, it's like powder.

So I would'nt go without clear coat...

 

What did SoWhat do on his truck? It's perfect!

 

Base coat works fine with no clear . I have had it on a couple of cars that i had for more than a few years and never had any trouble with it . We did the merc that way and my 54 and didnt have any of those problems listed above . It would wash just fine and if there was a scratch or something happened to an area , it was super easy to touch up .

 

Keep in mind that flat finishes are REAL hard to blend in if you have to do any repairs or fixes. With gloss paint, you can color sand and polish to blend an area in, but not with satin/flat... even if it's just solid colors. Plus if you get any runs/sags in the paint, they are there till you sand them off.

That said, I have been a huge fan of satin metallic finishes since long before I ever heard or read Cole Foster's name. I had seen "street rods" in the paint booth wearing only the basecoat, and thought that would look cool as a final finish. Coolness has its price, I suppose.

 

This is the only pic i have here, more at home... its a Canadian 53 Pontiac.

 

I am not sure if this has any bearing on why some guys have good luck running base coat without clear or not.
Not all base coats are the same.
Several paint companies just use acrylic enamel toners with a different binder to get their base coat color. The reducer required for them is usually milky in color or a reactive type reducer.
I would think they would have a better chance of holding up in the sun and weather than a true base coat designed only to be cleared over.
Carl

 

Chopolds is exactly right as usual.

Kruzer63 is more than likely talking about using Single Stage Urethane enamel with flattener added. I have also done this with very good results.

Sikkens and Glasurit both have a very durable flat (matte) clearcoat. This doesn't have exactly the same "flattness" as the single stage with flattener, the single stage will be duller in a different sort of way.

Pearls are small prisms that absorb then refract or divert light as it passes through. Metallics reflect light. Together along with pigments (color) they refract and reflect and change the way the light comes back at you from different angles.

Pearls won't give much of their designed effect without being clearcoated or by being used in a flattened finish. The only way to see this is try some recipes on some test panels ( which gets expensive.)

overspray

 

I have base coat no clear on my roadster and it is fine.... I used a good sealer first to protect the body and then sprayed the basecoat over that.
Works tits.

It has seen a few years of abuse, sun, rain, snow, salt,...... and donuts.

It's held up way better than I thought it would.. You need to be careful with it, and know it's limitations..... if you expect it to be as durable as clear or enamel, your foolish.. but if you are careful, it works out pretty good...

I'm not even careful, and it works pretty good... In fact now that it has aged a bit it has a cool "worn in" vibe about it.


It blends super easy too.

I used dupont, I think most of them would work fine...

My car has a Pearly glow about it........... esspecailly at night, I'm sure some of of you may have thought it was my "magic" charm... hahahah,
but it's all in the paint.


I had all sorts of dudes tell me it wouldn't work, but it does.... I would imagine a lighter color will hold up better than a darker color in the sun though........

 

What about good old single stage paint with flatner. Isn't that the same as using a 2 stage base coat without the clear? I did a car like this single stage PPG and flatner. The paint is just about bullet proof.

Somebody already mentioned the difficulty of matching colors when doing repairs to flat paint. I had to touch up an area on the car that I painted flat and it was almost impossible for me to get the colors to match.... but then I'm no paint pro either.

 

Flat single stage works good for non metalic colors, but the flattener, or flattened out clear kills the pearls and metalics.......

 

If you want to go with out clear metallics are weak.
Paint designed to be used with out clear will last much longer than any clear coated finish, if they are not maintained.
If you maintain your clear with a regular wash, and a light polish only when necessary,it will last well.
Clear does not like wax washes and will yellow with age, become brittle and flake if exposed to excessive sunlight quicker than a good paint in my experience, but any metal flake with out clear is a no-no.

 

If you fuckers were TRULY traditional, you'd use LACQUER thinned with cheap thinner and dry spray it

Probably the dumbest thing(economically) you could do is waste money on base color and NOT clear it. That is, if you expect it to last.
At the very least, why not tint a catalyzed primer for a final finish?

What ever happened to dulling a finish with five-ought steel wool?

Why am I even bothering to reply? I like SHINY paint


mid-tenn mike

 

I was over at Soldano's place last night looking at his A and rubbing myself. He used a tintable primer that's UV resistant from BASF. Wasn't sure if it's still available, but I know someone is making it.

Anyway, the stuff has held up well for 10 years, has a great suede look, and could easily be loaded w/ a little flake for a dimensional look. Here's a pic. of said car:

 

Just basecoat it and use PPG flexed & flat clear. It will give you the look your after and still give you UV protection. It goes on nice. You shouldn't have any problems.

 

ok, then how do you get a satiny finish with metalic paint?

 

Yes Overspray, that is what is on my ride, Sikkens enamel, single stage with Flattening agent. It worked great, gave the look that I was after, and has held up really good as I put lots of highway miles on this car every year travelling to as much as I can. It is startin to show its age, but it IS 10 years of mileage, and acts as a daily driver from April to October.

 

I pretty sure SoWhat said he used a Flex n Flat clear used for bumbers or something. You are right sir, it is perfect.

Nick