Hot Rods Packard V-12 in Hotrods?

Jim Dillon: Your in-depth discussion about the characteristics and operational qualities of the Packards really answers a lot of what had been mysteries for me (of course, since I wasn't born 'til 10 years after Packard abandoned V-12s).

The bottom line seems to me is that the later V-12s were designed in a different age to fulfill (and well) a very different set of performance goals. What Packard built was a smooth-running, quiet (and, yes, heavy) V-12 with plenty of power for its time AND without any need for high RPMs. So, it's not that the P-V-12 was in any sense a sub-par motor, not at all! But, as you've stated, it certainly would have been ill-suited for use in the new wave of lithe, quick-off-the-line hotrod automobiles!

I do want to add a personal observation. My time with horses reminds me that horse people often discuss a horse's "manners." How pleasant, for example, is this horse or that horse to ride and handle? It SEEMS to me that you really LIKED (and still do) the Packard V-12's . . .

MANNERS!

[Seems as though this thread has pretty much run its logical course, so I really want to THANK everyone for their very thoughtful input. For my part, I learned ALL the facts I'd sought -- and MORE! Salute!!!]

 

<TABLE class=tborder id=post4401357 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_4401357 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e5e5e5 1px solid">But, how about early? If a rodder could get a Lincoln V-12 cheap enough to put in a 'rod, why not a Packard? Didn't anybody actually at least TRY the Packard V-12, "back then," say, early '50s?
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</TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e5e5e5 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e5e5e5 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e5e5e5 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e5e5e5 1px solid">Yes. Before the fifties folks were doing it.

Dick Saunders from Rensselaer was building Auburns, Marmon Sixteens and Packard Eight and Twelve powered customs before and throughout the fifities. He used custom uber large bore sizes, domed pistons, and other modifications on the Packard Twelve in several customs. He even had one Packard Twelve he built with with twin superchargers, that were designed to kick in progressively. He also was very creative when gearing the customs. They each had a distinct personality and style.

Be careful though. Times are different today. So few Packard Twelves were built. They were built by hand, are quite scarce, and historically important. Parts are therefore very expensive not to mention the technical considerations. There are so many other much better options for unique and reliable hot rod power. It is a good idea to move on to an easier candidate, unless you are lucky enough to find one Packard Twelve that was already modified back then. They do exist. As a period correct piece with a well documented history, those cars are well beyond priceless.

Vintageride

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VintageRide: As to WHETHER anybody ever tried the Packard 12 in a hotrod, nobody has stepped up with info, BUT I imagine somebody, at some time, had the cash and loved the challenge. So far, NObody has said it happened, anywhere. But lots of Packard buffs have stated WHY it wouldn't have performed well in a hotrod.

Honestly, it seems funny, since lots of posts indicate rodding, racing, salt-flats trials with ALL sorts of mills. Unless my old brain cells are failing, I seem to recall reading a back-issue "HotRod" mag from the '50, recounting how a motorhead WWII vet coming home and putting a supercharged Allison V-12 into a car for the salt. I can't remember any results, but the story seemed to hold water, since so many people will rave about the RR V-12s (especially some guys in Australia). BUT, the problem with those aviation engines was (same as Packard V-12) sheer WEIGHT and dimensions. Sure wouldn't fit a Ford deuce very well!

 

Jimi,


Dick Saunders built several cars powered by the 1930s Packard Twelve in modified form. Three of the Saunders customs (each painted red) are shown on the attached photo I just located. From left to right is a boat tail, a convertible coupe, and a victoria. Look carefully at each red Packard in the photo to see what has been changed. Bodies, fenders, hoods all from the 1920s through the 1940s were used to build these cars.


The evolution of the boat tail car began in the thirties and stretched till his death in the 1970s.


The boat tail was really fast when powered by the bored out Packard Twelve. Creative gearing and supercharging allowed effortless speeds over 100 miles per hour. On the road he would pass by us so fast it seemed like we were stopped.

The convertible coupe was also quite powerful according to a previous owner. It was fitted with a Packard Twelve under the hood . He owned the car until about 1980. The next owner reportedly owned it til 2004.

Vintageride
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Manners = refinement, and at the risk of straying once again, that is what Jaguar strove for with their XJ-S V12s. The motor was designed to be completely silent. Air intakes would force the air to go supersonic to reduce noise. Exhaust manifolds had spiral corrugated inserts to reduce noise. The tranny was set up to shift before the motor got noisy. Yet the cars always seemed quite powerful to drive. From a performance perspective, all that 'stuff' made the breathing awful. Once remediated, these motors come alive and begin to sound like a proper V12.

 

Plym49: Man, YOU said a LOT about the Jag in a very few words. Well put. I always wanted a Jag 12, but that was mainly because of the panache of 12 cylinders WITHOUT knowing anything specific about them.

You Jag guys have me convinced now that the Jag can be what the individual owner WANTS it to be: As mannerly and quiet as a Packard, OR it's adaptable enough to scream in a 'rod. (LOOKS nice, too, onces dressed up.)

I can't afford a Packard, but MAYBE a Jag!

 

TY! Yes, the nice thing is that a runnable Jag motor is usually available for the cost of taking away whatever dead car it is in. As long as it is not seized or a cylinder badly scored the motors are good to go for another 100K. Therefore you can usually run the motor as-is without going into the heads or lower block. Now if you need to completely rebuild it, I can see that getting into money.

There is an upper limit to how much power they can make normally aspirated. The limitation is breathing since only two valves per cylinder. I used to know the fugire but I don't any more. Even in bone stock form an HE V12 ggives a very honest 300 hp and I have found that to be the magic HP number. IOW, if you have at least 300 usable HP you will be happy.

 

Shit fire, Plym49, who in their right mind wouldn't be HAPPY with 300 genuine out of a compact, nice-looking engine like THAT? Whoa!!!!!

KOOL 2. How many guys have 12s? (Yeah, I know it's British not U.S., BUT perf. automotive development -- historically -- is truly tied at the hip, right?)

The Pack won't work in rods, and the Lincon/Zephyr is practically untouchable, so . . .

 

Dude, there's a new post for us. Go search "For All You Lincoln V-12 Nuts." Yo won't believe your eyes!

 

that would look so cool in a 32' Deuce.

 

FreeBird, YEAH! ya GOTTA run that baby with no hood or side panels to just SHOW IT OFF!

 

I always wanted to build a rod from a Lincoln V12 - like since I was a teenager way too many years ago. When I was in my late teens I spotted a clean Lincoln V12 in a junkyard, still in the car. I took the radiator clamps and some other nonsense, but like a fool I did not grab that motor. This was in a super junkyard in Billerica, Massachusetts. I'm sure that yard is long gone. At the time, I was friends with someone related to the yard - maybe the son or nephew, I forget - but he'd let me cruise the place and sell me whatever I took for scrap prices.

 

Plym49, man, I FEEL your pain on that missed V-12 Lincoln. I've had some good things slip through my fingers, too, things I still kick myself for!

 

Well, I don't know what you all are thinking, but I'm thinking a Seagrave 906 in a Packard 120.

 

Neat idea but are you going to move the driver's seat back 12-14 inches? There is a bit of a difference in length between Packard's light 8 and the Seagrave.

 

Guys with THESE 2 engines let us know the ACTUAL length of the 2 power plants? This is an interesting concept!

 

Probably move the drivers seat back 12", and stretch the front end 16"

On the big Seagrave the heads on the engine are aprox. 43" long and from the front of the fan to the bellhousing transmission mating surface it is aprox. 58" long. Measuring at the heads it is about 22" wide and including the starter, fuel pump, oil filters brings it to about 32" wide. From the bottom of the oil pan to the top of the exhaust manifold which runs along the top of the engine it is about 35". If you include the intake manifold and carbs which set above it that adds another 16" roughly.

Big beast, to say the least!

 

Jiminny-Crickets!!! I WONDER what the engineers at Pierce would have thought of THAT, if any of them were still around when the ol'd Pierce desgin had "grown up" in the hands of Seagrave!!!

 

Probably would have thought what any sane person would think- it's f'n crazy!

 

OR, maybe they'd be TICKED that an engine with Pierce-Arrow bloodlines is going into a Packard!!!

Nyuk, nyuk !!

 

cool thread. I dig the odd motors in a rod. Pictures are a GMC from Goodguys Chicago, a V12 Lincoln, and a Seagrave from the Pile Up last week.

 

MtrHd, I think THIS is what I've been looking for: Namely how lower-bucks guys tried EVERYTHING they could find locally for a song. (NOW, of course, these monster, hi-torque motors cost a MINT!)

No, I don't think they'd have done well at stoplight racing. BUT, it's still KEEN to see these hook-ups tried ANEW!

And as YOU mentioned, they are COOLER THAN SHIT to see in a trad rod!!!!!!!!!

 

I have a friend in Fla. that does his own V12, and has done many. I have built many engines in my 71 yrs, but would not tackel a Packard V12. The valve system is in a class of its own. He has a wooden Block he made years ago to do the valve adjustment. Very special stuff. The con rods go up through the bottom through the bore and then the piston is attached. A very special ring compressor in then used cause the head surface is a different angle then the piston top. The crank is chrome plated (he has never seen one that needed any work) and the rod bearing are made from Plymouth 6 Main bearings. The engine is very strong, very quiet, and very powerfull. You only really need 2 gears, Low and HI, and it also has factory O/D, with a thermostatic set of louvers in the grill to control the heat or cool. I hope to help him with another V12 soon to be redone. Gona steal with my eyes, cause we are moving to Sarasota, Iceman

 

IceMan: Your DETAILED and thoughtful input VERY MUCH adds to what others have said about the complex internal engineering of the Pack V-12!!!! Besides the weight and low-rev/hi-torque scenario, the vast DIFFICULTIES of rebuilding one of these fine engines was and IS prohibitive! Great post and THANKS!! -- Jimi

 

Next life? I'm near youngstown, have a 1950 packard eight sedan, original 288 in it now with packard ultramatic. The ultramatic is sluggish because it starts in high then the converter locks up; no nice take off gear. But it IS smooth and steady and not too bad a comfy ride.

Putting a 327 packard in it this winter and detailing the engine bay, other minor issues. I'll probably be in it at goodguys in columbus come summer. Doesn't really fit in there since it's not a rod. Anyways, if i run into you, you're welcome to ride in or drive it.



That's her right there!

 

Jimi wrote: Iceman, your DETAILED and thoughtful input VERY MUCH adds to what others have said about the complex internal engineering of the Pack V-12!!!! Besides the weight and low-rev/hi-torque scenario, the vast DIFFICULTIES of rebuilding one of these fine engines was and IS prohibitive! Great post and THANKS!! -- Jimi

Jimi ADDS: Iceman, of course, ALL of the engine qualities I was talking about here address WHY the specialized 12 WOULD NOT make a workable hotrod plant. Just clarifying to the original point.

CortComp: You made my day. THAT is a VERY kind gesture -- obviously, from one car lover to another! Thanks for the kind ovation. Time and circumstances permitting, I'll try and hook up with you at Good Guys; my daughter went & had a good time, but my wife & I were camping and missed it.


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Actually, a Peerless V-16 was taken to Muroc Dry Lake right after it was built and driven to 100 m.p.h. Pretty good for an enormous 5-passenger sedan. Factory prototype, never went into production, but had aluminum frame, axles, body, wheels, engine, and firewall. Supposedly, there was a one or two thousand pound advantage over any Cadillac or Marmon V-16 car because of this.

 

Here are a few shots of the V12 in my 1932 Ford. This was one of my dreams to install one of them in a 32.

Thanks !
Frenchy

 

some more of Packards History;In the late '30's ..Packard built an aircraft V-12 to get the new P-51 Contract ,,however ,,the Allison was lighter and had a little more horsepower ,,and Allison got the contract ,,BUT,,later in the early '40's ,,the Navy wanted a fast patrol boat to help fight the War in the South Pacific ,,Packard was contacted and got the contract for the then new PT-Boats ,,Higgins Boat Co. & Others wanted or needed three supercharged Packard V-12's in each 90 foot boat to acheave the 60 knot speeds with a full load ,, ,,at first ,the Packards had 2000 HP each ,,then ,,2500 HP ,,and by the end of the War they were up to 3000 HP ,,EACH ,,awesome engines ,and the sound of all three with thru transom straight exhaust ( they also had 'Quiet Running Exhaust" ) ,at peak rpm was fantastic ,,the rest as they say ,,is history
Pic is WW II Motor Macs working on the Packard ,,

 

for you Packard experts; is it possable the reason Packard quit building V-12's for cars is because of his commitment to the War effert ?? he supplied the P T Boat engines clear into 1946 or 7