Wow, talk about ignorance. Not everyone in the middle east is a "terrorist", just like not everyone in America is fat. Also, the government subsidizes American farmers to grow corn (they pay farmers with taxpayers money) in order to reduce the price of ethanol gasoline. In other words, ethanol fuel isn't actually cheaper than regular gasoline. Either we pay for it at the pump, or we pay it through taxes.
Here in this part of Texas we have stations that have the 10% ethanol and others that have the non ethanol gas. I drive a late model truck with 4.6 efi engine and my wife drives a Lincoln LS with the high performance V8. Both vehicles will show a substantial decrease in MPG using the 10% ethanol. This is documented fact for these two vehicles. The stations here sell either for about the same price so it makes sense for me to use the non ethanol fuel. Interestingly enough my two old vehicles, both Fords one with a 428 and one with a 390 do not appear to get less mileage on the 10% fuel? I believe it may have something to do with the Carburetor not being quiet as efficient as the EFI to begin with, however that is just my opinion. And by the way Mr Highlander I do not consider myself as a "stupid idiot" just because I have a different view point from you. I do however feel that it takes a very small minded person indeed to put that label on everyone else. I am also convinced that the TMan must be in bed with one of the farmers benefiting from the sale of the ethanol fuel. Scott...
Most recent vehicles have rubber parts that are more than capable of handling alcohol, as are most aftermarket fuel system parts. The "problem" most of us are experiencing, in our middle-aged vehicles, is that the fuel maps in the engine management system are for E0, or straight gasoline, and have no sensing or adjustment capability in-regards to alcohol content. The BTU per gallon of gasoline is about 120,000, give or take grade. The BTU per gallon of ethanol is 84,000. These numbers are hard science. Ethanol produces less energy per gallon than gasoline, by about 25%. No way to debate that. NO name calling required. If you fuel system is metering air:fuel +/-14.7:1 based on straight gasoline (E0), your mileage would be about 25% lower on pure ethanol (yes, there are other factors involved). Mix the two together and your mileage loss will will depend on the ratio. My DD "thinks" it is running on E0, but it is running on E10. The MPG loss is tangible, and costly, and non-adjustable. A whole lot of, and in an increasing number, modern vehicles are equipped with a sensor that tells the computer what fuel is in the tank. The ECM can compensate with timing, injector pulse width, etc., which can offset the BTU loss somewhat, and the newer engines are being built to accommodate it better. Now as for all of the other issues about stuck or rattling valves, etc., in regards to ethanol content, they are all the stuff of myth, misinformation and/or misunderstanding. The octane rating of ethanol is somewhere near 110. Sounds pretty good, but you are not getting that at the pump with an ethanol blend, you are getting what the octane sticker says. Cut ethanol's 110 with some really low-grade gasoline, and you get 87, just what that sticker says.
Not at all, I have done the math, walked the walk and know what works for me. It would only make sense that your state of Texas would make straight gas as cheap as ethanol blends since you have a huge amount of oil exploration adn are not known for your corn
I still sell clear gasoline here in Fredericksburg. I think I'm about the only one who does. My business has really picked up because although E10 costs less than clear at the rack, but I keep my prices with the majors who sell E10. I've picked up a lot of new customers. I can see the writing on the wall that I will no longer be able to get clear gasoline. The change over will be a pain. Every drop of water which now stays at the bottom will have to be pumped out and I will have to use different filters at the dispensers. I have heard all kinds of horror stories about E10. The only experience I have had with E10 is 2 months ago I took my wife to Houston for surgery. I filled her Colorado here before we left and averaged 26 mpg. I filled E10 in Houston because it was all I could find. I figured 21 mpg on the way back. Of course Houston is sea level while where I live is 1400 feet. But I don't think I coasted that much.
So TMAN andZMAN what is it with people, can't figure any thing out and LEARN any thing. just go tru life w/conspiricy theory. I've used 15% for 20 years!! the boogy man isn't going to get you!!!!!! brother in law... gets his wisdom at the "coffee" everyday (sounds familiar?) says milage dropped on his wifes suburban by 1/3 when he used E-85, said "never use it again".. well yes i said it will on that, and that wasn't built to run on E-85, and it was rac'in fuel!! "no every one says it has no power! " oh bull shit!! " suburban is made to run on it, says so, duel fuel"" no, E-85 wants 11 to 1 com. ratio..your big old bus is 8-1comp. ratio... NOT THE SAME!! for 2 different fuels....your computer has to change to make it run... thats the ONLY DUAL ANY THING on your bus!! so i try to explain... lost him in 2 min..... Moral of the story don't go round telling the perils of ethanol, you'll end up as dumb as my bro-inlaw!!!
Lucky you. We have E10 across the board, and at the standard 87, 89, 91-92, so you can figure out what the octane rating of the gasoline they mixed in was.
If you really know what's what with ethanol blends then don't be so sensitive about the 36 grit remarks I made regarding the those who simply quote mainstream media. next thing you know we'll have to refer to ethanol as the "E word". I won't give any of you my resume. Let's just say be it 1/4 mile at a time or a 1/4 million dollars at a time, the difference is worth less than the bandwidth this thread is using. Wow, 10% reduction in MPG. Check it in the summer kids. It's like 6%. What is it costing you in real dollars? And as far as corrosive actions and your soft products turning into the wicked witch of the west, no go. Not unless you're all refering to the "barn find" you tried to drive as-is in the name of tradition. That old shit won't take it. Couldn't take regular fuel forever either. Get some thicker skin to go along with the newer fuel lines and carb guts. I'd bet this subject would die for good if that happened. But really, what fun would that be?
My 2001 Ranger is a flex fuel vehicle. It's made to run on E-85 or any combination up to straight gasoline. When the State of Florida put the piss juice in the pumps, it cost me 10% in mileage (21 MPG to 19 MPG). This isn't some old wives tale. Even on vehicle meant to use the stuff, mileage decreases. The octane is better but the mileage is a poor trade off. My truck has 245K pampered miles and runs great. But here's the other issue, cost. E85 maybe $1.25 a gallon, but at the few pumps that carry E85 here in Florida, the cost is almost at par. If you can't get at least a 10% savings in the fuel price, it's a waste of money. I look at the Big 3 in telling me if alcohol causes problems with a fuel system. The fuel lines are all stainless steel. The fuel pump is stainless steel and costs twice as much as a standard fuel pump. While I won't tell you 10% will hurt your system, E85 in a car not set up for it will definitely have a shorter life span. Nothing like watching parts corroded to nothing because the owner say a stupid video proclaiming the it won't hurt a car set up for gasoline only. Even in Michigan, we called this fuel contamination. There is only one reason our federal and state governments push ethenol; emissions. It burns cleaner. That is the only reason it's being pushed. I say no thank you.
The latest myth around here is that when the Alky absorbs the water, it turns to a gel that will plug filters, slug up fuel pumps, transmogrifry injectors, alter brain waves (electrical ones, too), cause the "heartbreak of psoriasis", and anal seepage. So I put about two tablespoons of water in a pint jar and filled it with 10%. It's been sittin' awhile, and I don't see any "gel"; I don't see any water, either! I'll keep it thru the summer- maybe it's got to be hot- then I'll use it in my chainsaw if it doesn't "gel up". The 10% doesn't last fer crap- chainsaw set for all winter and started as soon as gas hit the carb. I guess the Studebakers won't run on it either- they've been sittin' all winter with 10% in the tank. Son's Olds set while he was doin' time in the Army with 10% in the tank, plus a healthy squirt of MMO. He put a battery in it and started it. He did have some problems with it, but they were from sittin' for a coupla years. I can get about 5-8% better mileage with regular gas in my OT '09 Ram, and with E-85 I drop off a lot- from 17-18 mpg to 12-14 mpg. The price difference here is not enough to make it economical for me to use. One other thing: farmers around here are getting paid to NOT grow corn or other crops on marginal ground...
I figured that I'd give this thread a few days to roll & see what happened , and I've gotta say that I'm not suprised at what I saw . If you haven't read that articleI posted in my previous post , READ IT NOW . It is WELL worth the very short load-up time to be informed . Once the page loads , TYPE IN PAGE 24 AT THE TOP to go right to the page of the article : http://www.britishmotoring.net/current_issue/2010_Winter.pdf The topics they touched on are EXACTLY the issues we've seen at our shop . I'm not just typing words that I've read on the internet , I'm not just typing words that I've forced my brain to believe , I'm not just typing words that I overheard someone blabbing about in the Dunkin Donuts ... these are issues THAT WE'VE ACTUALLY SEEN in our shop over that last couple years since we got the 10% ethanol fuel in our area . Some will put on their blinders & say (undoubtedly ) that I'm off my rocker & these problems don't exist , but it's not B.S. - we've actually SEEN the issues . So I'm not buying it . Had I not witnessed all of the issues in the article above , I'd be right there alongside the pro-ethanol guys (or should I say "not-anti-ethanol" ?) . FWIW , I've seen at least a 10% drop in mileage in my personal modern cars (3 of 'em - post'90) across the board , and YES I DO check my mileage at nearly ALL fillups , and NO , it's NOT just because it's wintertime now . I make plenty of long highway trips too w/the cruise on also - trips that I've made over & over for many years , in the same cars ... say whatcha like .
Thank you, as for the corn, it is the most inefficient crop to produce ethanol from. E85 is 110, straight ethanol is even higher. Other than that you need to start factoring in compression ratios and efficiency of the engine using the fuel to do the math. The straight BTU of the fuel is not enough info. We need comressionratios, engine efficiency, etc. Your theory would give that 12:1 race engine the same power as a 8:1 street one. I'm trying to figure out wether you agree with me or not. Flex fuel vehicles as I have said are gas engines that will change the timing and jetting enough to run on E85, but don't take advantage of the fuel. As for the BTU's of Ethanol (especially in E85) you need significantly higher compression to take advantage of it. Why is an Alcohol drag car faster than a Gas one?
sorry Zman.... I tend to ramble on, yes you are correct. fact: you will see reduced MPG with ethanol( run it in a hi compresion engine, now ck MPG) fact: w/ gas, junk and water tends to stay in the tank. w/ethanol this stuff in the tank goes thru the system, all at once! if your filter ect . already are dirty, you are PLUGGED UP! most people blame the ethanol because it plugged up when i used it. fact: flex fuel vehicle is built to run on gas! the ecu changes the tune up so it "will run" on ethanol blend. don't need to check MPG, you can feel the loss of power. 1 more time, build a 11 to 1 comp. engine for E-85, now check MPG, HP, even ET!!!!! fact: ben useing 15% blend for 20 years, 4-wheeler, lawn mower, pontoon,chainsaw,motorcycle, countless cars and trucks. never a problem. still i talk to people i know who have NEVER tryed it, not even 1 tank fact: ethanol is a renewable fuel! arabs,war,depleteing supplies of gas! ethanol is the future
i wish i could buy E85, my 99 7.3 diesel strated leaking fuel out onto the top of the engine, i traced it to the fuel filter water drain, the o-rings had gone bad, i go to the dealer and they have seen this many times, the new fuel f-d the o-rings and i ended up buying the new valve they sell that has different o-rings that can take the new fuel. just my story.
That's just where I run my ign timing. I wasn't relating that to the E gas. I think I stated the valves rattled about the same with both E and no E, which indicated to me the octane rating was about the same.
Thing about ethanol is that it is in one word it is alchol. Goverment calls it ethanol to keep idiots from drinking it....
You may notice the "(yes, there are other factors involved)" parenthetical expression in my post. You are correct, and I am aware of my oversimplification. People get bored and ask me to stop when I drone on and on about this stuff. I try to save you guys the trouble of telling me to shut up. ...and I was talking about the exact same engine, multiple fuel scenarios.
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