Working on a transmission swap in the daily driver. I've run into some snags along the way, but got most of them resolved. So here's the run-down. It's a 63 Chevy C10, 230 6 cylinder with a toasted 3 speed manual. The replacement trans is a non-world class T5 from an 89 S10. As suggested elsewhere on the HAMB, I got a new clutch for an 89 Astro Van. First problem encountered was that the original cast iron bell housing had a big freakin' crack in it. No problem, I had another bell housing, only it's a later, aluminum part but it fits. Next thing, the old flywheel was a 153 tooth single bolt pattern for a smaller clutch. Since I bought the 11" clutch, I needed a different flywheel. No problem, I had one of those. Only thing is, it's a 168 tooth steel flywheel. Oh well, it fits. Except now the starter won't work. After trying four re-manufactured starters, I finally pony up for the Power Master gear reduction. It works great. Ask me about Chevy starters some time. I've learned a little. We put the T5 in and it seemed to be really tight going in. Once we got the Power Master starter bolted on and hit the ignition, she cranked about one rotation and stopped. After that we couldn't get it to crank at all. Just had the whole thing in a huge freakin' bind. So the trans came back out. Checked measurements, cut the sleeve that the throwout bearing rides on and put in a thinner throwout bearing. Bolted it all back together. Hit the starter. Fired right up first time. Ran her through all five gears and reverse while it was up on the stands. Everything seemed to work to perfection. Here's where I am with this thing now. Finally got the 5-speed in with a flywheel, bell housing, drive shaft and starter combination that works. When it's up on jack stands I can go through all 5 gears and reverse and the wheels spin like they ought to. Put her on the ground and she won't budge. Seems like the clutch won't disengage all the way even when the pedal is adjusted real loose. Thought we had it nailed. We especially felt good about it when the wheels were spinnin' while it was running and in gear. Just didn't have any weight on the wheels. I know we're close. We can hear the clutch disk lightly scraping on the flywheel when it's in gear and I let out the clutch pedal. Just not enough friction to move the thing. I'm thinking the throwout bearing is holding the clutch out just barely enough to slip when under a load. Wondering if I put a washer or two between the bell housing and the block would move the whole assembly back far enough to let the clutch disk hit the flywheel? I'm guessing the best thing would probably be to pull it apart again, put the throwout bearing in my lathe and turn about a tenth off the face of it. But I just want to get it back on the road now. So the washers might just be the next step. I just can't think of anything else at this point. Sorry for the long post. Just thinking this thing through at the keyboard. Any thoughts?
You mean that it's not engaging, right? I would'nt resort to using washers as that just reeks of disaster. Maybe the problem is in the throwout arm. Oh, now I remember something; there were two different throwout bearings, a short one and a long one. The earlier Chevies used a flat fingered diaphragm clutch and the long bearing, then they went to a pressure plate with a curve in the fingers ("beehive" comes to mind) and a shorter bearing, bet that's it.
chevy (gm) actually made 3 different length throwout bearings, you might not have the shortest one installed. best book is either Mcloud (sp) or Centerforce for dimensions, don't go Autozone, their books won't show anything beyond general applications......... also check the length of the pivot ball for the clutch fork inside the bellhousing, there are several lengths of those also.Summitracing.com has a bunch of manufactuer links with a lot of data........hope this helps...
there are three types of pressure plates also, borg and beck that came either flat fingers or high cone fingers, and the performance style three finger style.
sounds like someone changed out some parts on that truck before you got it...the original bellhousing mounted to a crossmember under it, and used the big flywheel and the starter bolts to the bellhousing, not the block. I can imagine that the clutch linkage is all messed up as well.....pictures might help.
Exactly as I remember also....THREE different T.O. bearing lengths. Also, you might benefit by using an adjustable clutch fork pivot ball to get where you need to be. Let us know what worked, so we all can learn from it
Also, I would install the trans with no clutch and peek up in there with a mirror to see if the trans shaft is binding on the pilot bushing. Often the trans shaft needs to be shortened about 3/8 inch with a hand grinder.
Yup. Exactly. I wondered about that. The throwout bearing that's in it now is the one that came with the clutch. So wouldn't that be the right match? Nah, I'm the one swapping parts. The original bellhousing was the one that was cracked. We put the aluminum bellhousing in. That's why I had to go with a different starter. The block just happened to be drilled and tapped for the straight across bolt pattern starter. Clutch linkage all seems fine, just can't get that last fraction of throw. I got this truck from The Fidgeter. He did a lot of work on the suspension and brakes and it's all top notch work. He even put in a new starter that I can't use now. I always planned to do the trans swap. The old 3-speed just gave up quicker than expected. Guess that's what happens when you start driving it 250 to 300 miles a week. I took that 3/8" off the input shaft. Then took about an inch off the sleeve for the throwout bearing. Doesn't seem to be a binding problem now. There sure was before though. Thanks for all the responses. Still not sure what the answer is, but I'm getting some ideas now. Pivot ball, clutch arm, throwout bearing combination maybe. Keep 'em coming guys. This stuff is fun, right?
Not always, I have about a 50/50 success rate using the bearing that came with a kit, especially when doing a non oem install like what you are doing.... like I said before and Groucho said, check the the fork pivot and using the adjustable one is a good idea
Just had another thought, Measure the depth of the original bellhousing against the one your using. from the block surface to the transmission mounting surface. Are they the same? If the replacement is deeper it may have changed the clutch release arm geometry from the pivot ball enough to keep the throw out bearing from completely releasing. When you pull it apart compare those pivot balls inside the bellhousings, maybe eyeball for differences. Good Luck,
Thanks. I'll definitely give that a look. And Squirrel, I'll try to remember to take pictures next time. I always forget that.
I had trouble on one T-5 that used the 11 inch clutch. The spline on the clutch hub interfered with the input shaft spline. I needed to shorten the hub a little and everything worked out. Maybe 1/4 inch. Try to stab the trans in with just the disc, no presure plate. See if it works and doesn't bind on the spline. And do you got the disc in in the right direction? Frank
Most of the things that guys are suggesting will cause the clutch to not release. Your problem is that it won't engage (it's always released). Something is pushing the throwout bearing all the time....
On ther disc, the bulkier side of the damper spring area goes towards the rear of the car, into the pressure plate. I don't think you can assemble it backwards without some real trouble, indicating it's wrong
That's what I was thinking. Exactly. The adjustable pivot ball and a shorter throwout bearing is how I'm leaning right now.
Just curious here. I know starters bolt to the small block chevy block. Unlike Fords they bolt to a respected bellhousing. 158 tooth and 162 tooth. Is this the same on the chevy six? Or does it bolt to the bell? If so I see a situation. You had two different fly wheel tooth counts which might have two different diameter flywheels. If the starter bolts to the bell then the right bell must be used with the respected flywheel. If I am totally wrong for this thought I will go back to watching tv and eating cookies.
Screw adjustable pivots, I've had em back down too many times to trust em. Just buy a taller fixed pivot, they were used by heavy trucks. good luck
Something that hasn't been brought up yet. I have ran into this problem only a couple of times. May not apply, but... Sometimes the disc rivets will be installed too tight, thus raising a small portion of the friction material around them. This will not allow full contact of the disc to the pressure plate or the flywheel. Then with no load on the wheels/tires it will work, once load is applied it won't. Like I said earlier I have only ran into this a couple of times.
Are you using the cast straight clutch fork from the orignal bellhousing? I believe the newer aluminum bells took a curved fork.
I got the starter problem licked. The PowerMaster starter did the trick. But just so you know, apparently the older chevy starters bolted to the cast iron bell housing. Sometime in the early 60's (maybe '64) they switched to a block mounted starter. My C10's 230 6-cylinder originally had the bell mounted starter, but the block was drilled for a straight across bolt pattern starter. I'm thinking this may have been a transitional year. Nope. Didn't do that. I'm collecting a small pile of parts to try when I pull the trans out again. Should have multiple combinations to experiment with. Sounds like another possibility. How can a guy resolve that one? Just take the clutch back? Or do a little shaping around the rivets with a die grinder? Cast straight fork. Didn't think it mattered since the bend was outside the bell housing.
Oops.... I forgot to mention, THANKS to all who have responded! This place is great! It's especially a big help for boneheads like me who keep getting tripped up. The HAMB is a great resource. We'll get this thing nailed eventually.
Thanks, I learned something today. Was this just in the trucks, 6-bangers, or what? Seems to be a lot of different combos.
Trucks with manual transmission use the bellhousing mount starter thru 72. Cars with cast iron powerglide had it thru 62, manual trans sometime in the early 60s.
Here's my project that's similar but not done.... for my '63 C-10 swb '67 250 inliner - Lakewood BellHsg - 168 Flywheel - BellHsg Starter - T-5 wc Camaro/S10 (Ford bolt pattern)
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