So,I went to go get my Cadillac from the shop today,and on the way back had major problems after hitting the freeway.I noticed my car started overheating,and loss of power in my trans(Due to overheating),and my generator light came on.So I pulled over,luckily I had a trail car following me,because what I found was heartbreaking.Now mind you,they did fix the heads,install the cam,lifters and push rods and fix the power steering,but they forgot to change the belts,hoses and minor shit they are supposed to do when doing the top end.Well,because they forgot to change the belts,one of the belts(The one that runs from the alternator to the fan/water pump) decided to give up the ghost and broke,which also took out my alternator wire to the battery and also stopped spinning the alternator.The belt then decided to wrap itself around the fan clutch causing the car not to cool properly which also caused the trans to overheat which in turn caused the trans seals to blow out.Now its back in the shop to be fixed properly.Heres pics Trans Fluid everywhere: Alternator wire that was severed by the broken belt: And what I like to call Boa Constrictor attacking mouse,AKA broken belt wrapped tightly around fan clutch: Now,people that I have told what happened said they should not only fixed what got fucked up,but they should fix all my trans seal for no charge too,since the trans overheating and blowing seals was due to the motor overheating because the fan was incapacitated by the broken belt.Can that even happen?I don't know because this is the first time something like this has ever happened to me.The only other incident like this was when i had a '73 Cadillac and the damn water pump to crank pulley belt jump off the water pump/fan pulley(Non AC car) causing it to overheat,but I stopped that in time.I didn't catch this until I noticed acceleration loss in my trans and saw my generator light flicker and my temp gauge sitting at the 3/4 mark,so I pulled over on the freeway and killed the motor right there to prevent further damage.They came and towed it back to the shop(The damage was because of their negligence,since they've had the '63 for two months and rebuilt the top end and power steering and installed my cam,etc.,but didn't bother to put new hoses,belts,but yet they put in my new coil,which i could have done myself with no problem.) They said they would fix the damage caused by the belt,but they want to charge me between $200 to $300 to reseal the whole trans.Should I have to pay for that,or could the damage been caused by the overheating?I never noticed the trans leaking before I took it to them,but you can tell by the pics it sure as hell leaks now.
Man, I'm sorry for your troubles. Did you tell them to change the belts and hoses? I ask because I've been on the other end. I've done work on peoples cars and changed hoses and belts and caught hell for it. Everyone wants to save a dime, and put the old hoses etc back on the car. It looks like you drove it awhile after you threw the belt? I guess I'm not sure where I stand on this, just don't know the deal that was made with the garage. I wish you luck. chris
sorry to here this. you can't assume they would change the hoses if it was not discussed before hand.
"they forgot to change the belts,hoses and minor shit they are supposed to do when doing the top end" Unless you told them to,,no,,,That is one of teh major complaints you will hear from people who take there car to a shop. They did all this stuff I never told them to do In the day I'm sure honest shops fixed things that we on there way out or hazzardous with teh customers safety etc in mind. In time some just ripped people off,,but to best of my knowledge in this day and age,,no shop will just "DO" something without asking you . when you picked up the car did you look under the hood?? another thing most folks don't do ,,they just assume "I paid my money everything's just fine" and truth be told you always have to check the work thats been done,,its almost a personal responsibility. Sorry for what happened to your car,but yes the trans seal are on you,,and to pull reseal and reinstall the trans,,thats not a bad price.
That whole story is repeated at garages every day. "It never made this noise untill you fixed the brakes", or, "The trans has slipped ever since you put that new muffler on..." or some nonsense like that. You kept driving it untill it got hot enough to lose power, with the alt. light on. That's why they call 'em "idiot" lights. They don't indicate you drive to the next exit...You didn't ask to have the belts/hoses changed, that isn't normal "shit" to change unless you told 'em to. You're driving down the highway, enough air ought to be moving thru the radiator even without a fan, and how long DID you drive it that way? You didn't hear of feel the fan belt go with it wrapped around the fan? It got hot enough to cook the trans, destroy seals? Because the fan wasn't spinning? Man up, pay the bill to fix your leaky old trans, and stop whining.
It was the first thing I asked before I originally took the car to them.I asked,clearly"When you rebuild the top end,do you put new belts and hoses?),and the reply they gave me was"Yes".I wasn't more than 20 minutes from the shop where I pulled over on the freeway,and i shut it down once I realized the temp was at the 3/4 mark(A quarter away from maxing out the temp),so no,I didn't drive it a while.It didn't throw the belt until somewhere right before I got on the freeway.The only reason I think this is because that's when the generator light started flickering and the temp started to raise.I was babying that car even getting on the on ramp.I never romped on the gas,etc.I know proper break in procedure for a new top end,so I was being careful.
Let me clear a major part of this up.It was discussed that when they did the top end,which I also paid them to install a cam and lifters and push rods(Which I paid for,it wasn't included in the price to have the heads rebuilt),I also discussed them changing the belts and hoses when they did the top end,which they said they would.Now,why would they take it back after I called them telling them what happened with the belt?You guessed,they admitted to fucking up.I don't play games and try to get something for nothing,especially with the fact that this is my only car,my only mode of transportation.I also had time estimate problems with them too.My original time frame for the heads to be rebuilt,cam installed,hardened valve seats,and the power steering fixed was 2 weeks,and that's what the shop quoted me,and then almost 2 months later I get the car back and less than 20 minutes on the road and this happens.Now mind you,I also paid them a majority of the amount due as a deposit so they had the money there to work with. Which,my question wasn't answered that I asked,could the overheating of the motor due to the belt wrapping the fan clutch cause the trans to overheat and break the seals?By the way,the reason i know it wasn't leaking before I took it to the shop is because in the 8 months I've owned it,this is the first time it had been driven more than just moving it from my driveway to the street or a few feet.The only thing that leaked prior to it going to the shop was the oil around the heads from the blown gaskets and the power steering fluid.That's the whole reason I took it to the shop.I knew what had to be done to the car to make it a runner when I first got it,so I saved while paying bills,and while also buying certain parts to the car that needed to be replaced or missing.I'm not out to screw someone over,but if I pay for quality work and terms are agreed upon and I have an invoice,then their end of the agreement needs to be met,and if damage is caused by their negligence,are they responsible?That's why I'm asking about the trans.By the way,the temp gauge shot from just under half to three quarters in less than 2 miles,from where I got on the freeway to where I pulled over.Before that it was running and shifting fine.I'm lucky I had a chase car following me so I had a ride back home(The shop is 50 miles from my house,and that's by freeway).If this would have happened and I didn't have a chase car because I decided to just get dropped off and drive back,I would have been royally screwed.
I would doubt the overheating caused the trans seals to go bad. The more likely culprit would be old seals that sat for 2 months not being operated.
So the real question is since you have NO experience with this car other than trips from the driveway to the street in the 8 months you've owned it - Was the trans any good from the start? I think the trans was shit to begin with. How could anyone tell the trans was a good runner in driveway to street distances. You may have a radiator issue, moving at 30mph should have plenty of air movement for cooling. How tight is the water pump? I assume the radiator has a trans cooler? The radiator has been sitting for 8 months+. Any service history on the radiator in the life of the caddy? If not it likely has a bunch of crap in the coolant that was flushed into the motor and the trans cooler that was sent through the trans. It sounds like its time for a radiator service and a new water pump. Thank the shop and bring them lunch when you stop in to pick it up this next time.
Every belt I have lost has made enough racket that I KNEW what was going on. You like Verbal said, it sounds like you are at fault not the shop.
i would say you should have known that the belt was gone and something was wrong. but like it was sayed earlier how do you know the trans was any good if you never really drove the car. sitting like that is very hard on seals, i found that out the hard way myself. hope everything works out, but i would have to say personally i wouldnt feel right making them redo everything for free. at least do something for them to show that you appreciate what there doing. and spread the word that they did right buy you because that is the best advertising a shop can get.
You didn't look to see if they changed the belts? I don't mean to sound like an arse, but you should have made sure that got done. Maybe you wanted to save a dime cause they looked decent, but restretching an old worn out belt and putting it back on is about as reliable as installing some old dry rotted tires and then heading to the twistys. Edit: It's an old car. Trans was probably due anyway, just consider it your fun tax, get er rollin again and enjoy it. How about a couple exterior shots of it? We like pictures!
on the freeway you do not need the fan. the temp gauge on my truck barely gets to 180° with all the air going through the radiator. the fan comes on in slow traffic and stop and go. the trans cooler in front of the radiator gets the same air, so that shouldn't matter. usually the red warning light comes on if the belt breaks. does yours work? it would have pissed water and steam everywhere if it was really hot. the trans seals would not fail just because the fluid got a bit warm. just old seals that were most likely already leaking and you just didn't notice, most likely.
I seriously doubt it too. My intuition is telling me you should work with them, and that if they had changed the belts it would have been noted on your bill, and they would have given you the option of keeping the old ones too.
First, I see in the picture that there is a belt still on there driving the water pump from the crank. That tells me the water pump was probably turning. Second, I see the belt wrapped around the fan clutch. This would prevent the clutch from slipping like it's supposed to, and therefore (if it affected it at all), the fan would spin faster than it should have, pulling more air, not less. 3rd, as others have mentioned, once you are over 30-35 MPH, the fan does nothing useful anyway. Unless the belt was hung up on something preventing the fan _and_ water pump from turning (making the drive belt for the water pump slip), then you have a different problem causing the overheating. I have never heard of a transmission seal blowing because of engine overheating, and I have seen some really cooked stuff in my day. I have gotten a tranny hot enough to puke fluid out of the vent tube, and I guess if the vent tube is plugged, it would release pressure somewhere (like out through a seal - stuff expands when heated). That could cause an external seal to fail permanently a few miles sooner than it would have, but only if it was already wasted. Ask them to check / clean the vent tube, while they are re-sealing the tranny. Tranny seals dry out with sitting (you said 8 months, but how long did it sit before you got it?), but they don't usually start leaking until after you put a few miles on them. A slipping tranny will overheat the tranny fluid. That fluid is cooled by transferring heat to the engine coolant, if you are using the tranny cooler built into the radiator, and that will make your coolant temp go a little higher than normal. It sounds to me like there are a few things yet to be ironed out on your car. Welcome to the world of resurrecting a dinosaur. It sounds to me like the shop screwed up with the belts, but is stepping up and taking care of what they should, based on the info you have provided. However, if you are going to make a habit of this (resurrecting cool old cars), I recommend joining a club, and spending your money on books and tools, instead of paying someone to do it for you. Most of us have found that the journey is half the fun.
I'm in agreement with most all above. Iv'e never seen a trans "go out" due to engine overheating. On your own admission you didn't really know the condition of the trans. Thats pretty harsh to go back to the shop and ask them to fix the trans. They are really going the extra mile for you on this. Tell everyone you know! N.N.
Losing engine cooling for two minutes is not going to raise the trans temp much. You were probably losing fluid already and that's why it started slipping. I've experienced old Hydro's that worked ok straight out of the junk yard, but give 'em one good run and they start belching fluid out the front. The price for a reseal sounds good IF they actually do the whole tranny, not just the outside, which I suspect this price reflects. An internal leak will manifest itself in burned out clutches.
here's my take on it.don't want to come off like a dick, but 1 as mentioned you should have heard the belt wiping around the fan, which would have had the fan at full speed, so no damage there. 2if the water pump wasn't working, and causing the car to over heat, you would have lost your power steering also as they all run off the water pump pulley, in 1 of your pics you can see you ps belt still in tack, meaning your water pump was working. maybe there's a block somewhere else or they somehow blocked a passage? 3 your car should never get over 1/4 on the temp gauge. Ive driven my cads with no fan shrouds in traffic and never gotten close to 1/2. i realize that you've had high outside temps in la lately, but you have have never driven your car before, i think id be cool with the repair shop.
Thanks,that's all I needed.Not people acting like I don't know shit.I've already agreed to pay for the trans resealing and I'm having them do some break work(Things happen for a reason).As far as me no knowing the car,riiight.I have documented history on this car back to the original owners and know all of the work done to it previously.I can safely say the trans was in working condition,and it had no problems from the shop to the freeway until the car overheated.No temp warning light on my Caddy that I know of,and the car has under 97,000 original miles.And yeah,it got hot enough to spray coolant under the hood.It was also in the work invoice that the belts and hoses were to be replaced with the top end work.
Well,here's the reason why I got rid of the car. So,it went back in the shop,and they sealed the trans and went through the breaks.I get a call a week and a half later to come pick up the car that weekend,so I get ready on Saturday to go get the car and I get a call from the shop and the mechanic tells me the car is not ready because it won't shift.It shifted the day they picked it up,only problem is the seals blew and it needed to be resealed. Here's the odd part,he said when he opened up the trans everything looked great,and he resealed and installed it. But yet,it still wouldn't shift,so with advice and info I received from Bagged64,I recommended they put in a new governor and assembly,which they didn't,he said he'd just clean it in solvents and that would work. So,another week goes by and still no call,so I call them. I talked to the mechanic and he said he didn't want to call me because he didn't want to break the bad news to me,and when I asked what bad news he said he suspects I have a cracked block. I asked him how he figured that one,and he said because they got the trans shifting fine so he took it for another test drive and it overheated and blew the gaskets again. I asked him,did you check the thermostat like I asked,did you test the cooling system at all,he said no,because it's most likely the block,and he told me they didn't have the equipment to do a pressure check on the motor,that they have the old school know how and intuition and repeated that my block is cracked.Now,according to the owner before me that I got the car from,he knew for sure the block wasn't cracked when I got it from him,so I just got fed up with the whole situation and sold it for what I had in to it. Basically,the shop didn't want to do what I asked and even paid for them to do,and just wanted me to have them rebuild the lower end for $2200 plus I had to provide the lower block,etc. I'm not going to get in to what else I found out.
If you really believe its ALL someone elses fault then your choices are A - Show some initiative buy a manual and learn to turn your own wrench B - Stick to owning/driving toyotas Driving a classic isn't for those easily discouraged.
Hooligan 63, sorry for your troubles but you should have checked yourself and why did it take so long after the mishap before you realized something was wrong? You can't just ignore any changes in noises or driving, you gotta pay attention these are old cars they require driver input.
It sounds like the shop did exactly what you asked for, and you continued to run the car hard despite knowing that it had problems. I think you're just going to have to pay up, man. Shit happens.
The sweet thing about doing it yourself is that when it's screwed up you only have yourself to blame. You may also want to find a better shop to have stuff done if you can't do it yourself. I sure did say yourself alot...huh
I continued to run it hard??When I sold it,it was still at the shop. I never got to drive the damn thing for more than 10 minutes and less than 10 miles.People should read everything before leaving a comment,the problem was they didn't do everything I discussed with them,and yeah,I know how to turn a wrench,unfortunately due to where I live I can't do any of the work at my house or else I would have. The guy I sold it to caught them on something else. The guy I sold it too happens to be a body man at another shop,and he asked them how much to do the paint,they told him $10K,and that was to start. Let me fill you in some more,the guy that bought my Caddy went to the shop to look it over before deciding to buy it,and he said when he showed up they were sitting around drinking during shop hours. Also,I had a hell of a time getting a hold of them when I needed to,and most of the time they were short on the phone with me. Now,another concern I had that started turning me sour towards the shop was the fact that when I went there I was being shown some headers for my motor that they had received for another Caddy that was there. I started talking to them about my fuel gauge and speedometer issue,and he told me he just sent out a dash cluster assembly a few weeks prior to get rebuilt,and then he realized he hadn't sent it out when he spotted it sitting on the shelf. Also,there is a Black '64 Sedan DeVille sitting in the shop that they had sent the motor out a few months prior and still haven't heard anything back on. I kind of wonder why the hell they haven't contacted the shop they sent the motor to. I also noticed new scrapes along the body of my Caddy when i saw it the week prior to selling it (I had put it up for sale with the intentions of towing it home first,but the guy that bought it came,paid me cash,then went back to the shop and had AAA tow it to his house about three days before I was to have it towed back to my house). I know not all shops are crooked or do bad work,well,I have friends that work in amazing shops,but I was on a time limit and this shop responded back to me the fastest about the work and i did a little research on them prior to taking my car their and I couldn't find any complaints,so I trusted them. I've paid them every cent for the work they did,and even made arrangements to pay for what I wanted them to do,and they wouldn't do it because they swore they knew that the block was cracked without even testing it. By the way,the mechanic was the one that blew the head gaskets the second time test driving it,not me.And also,for the ten minutes I did drive it before it went in the second time,I never took it over 60 and I had my chace car pace me for the drive home because I wanted to make sure the cam was broken in. Yeah,totally my fault they didn't do quality work. The fact that they didn't replace the belts and hoses the first time like we agreed on in the work write for the top end and the power steering should have told me to get the hell out of there,but I'm a little too trusting sometimes. Now I'm only going to go to people I know for sure for any work that I need done unless I can find a way to do it myself. Like I said,the shop got paid for what they quoted me on,and my mistake was paying them in full before the work was done,and for what should have taken a month at most to begin with took 4 months,and the heads were a month alone. Like I said,I'm done dealing with it and I sold it because I was getting the run around. This isn't my first classic,and the others I did the work on myself and they turned out fine,but because of where I live,I am restricted to what i can do with a vehicle.
Never owned a new car,not about to start. I grew up in a shop,so i know when something's not right.I've turned wrenches on all my cars I've owned except for the Caddy. I've also helped do motor and trans swaps,rear end swaps,interior jobs including convertable tops,paint and prep, and a slew of other things. If you think I don't know anything,ask Skuzkitty how well I diagnosed the issues with her '34 Ford via phone calls and I was right every time.
Turned out I was right,it was negligence on behalf of the shop. I spoke to the new owner who took it to a specialist,and the mechanic pulled the head on the drivers side and found the head to be cracked on a cylinder bolt hole and the bolt snapped off in the head. The only people to touch the motor on that Cadillac before the owner after me were the people at BFE Classics in Lake Elsinore. He stated that they fixed the head,replaced the head gaskets and now the car runs like a charm. Looks like the mechanics at BFE Classics over torqued the head bolt which caused the crack and the constant overheating problem. Also looks like I'm going to get some legal counseling and get my $1300 back for the head work. I have witmnesses,written statements,reciepts and also the work reciept from the new opwner to back up my claims.
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