Engineers of yester year compared to today!

I am at a show yesterday, next to me a 82 yr old man with his 1939 v12 Packard! showing his car and talking! I overheard him say ... "the reason these cars and others of the time , where overbuilt is because compared to to days engineers they only have a 8th grade education"...! And they overbuilt because they couldn't figure how to do any other way! I feel from the beginning of automotive engineering , those where the guys with the smarts not the other way around .. Too much electronic help for the new guys... I am not talking about being resourceful or material usage just the guy that thought up ideas! ...So who's more smarter a Pre 1942 guy or a guy after 1946? ...

 

Im not sure if that would be correct.. and I couldnt say.. they all did something right back then.. made the cars to last.. Not like nowadays.. todays new cars are crap.. I think they were all smart up till about 1973..

 

cars are not a good comparison of smarts there are only soo much to be done.

light bulb changed the world

micro chip changed the world 100 times more.

 

Old vs new engineering, eh?

Back then the question was "what is the best we can do? stay all night till its right, safety factors or four and five"

Now-a-daze its "what's the least we can do? data point too low, apply Willke transformation, safety factors of o.ooo1, that's a GREAT idea boss, smoochsmoochswallow"

 

Wow, what a can of worms!

The old engineers didn't have to deal with CAFE regulations, Pollution regulations, safety regulations and probably another hundred factors when desingning automobiles. Now weight is everything, so while in the old days they made the casting a little thicker iron with more nickel in it so it would stand up longer, now engineers are trying to figure out how to make it from Carbon Fibre or plastic.

Designed Obsolescence wasn't as big a factor back then either - who would buy new cars if their old onese went for 500,000 miles with minimal maintenence?

There was some great engineering going on back in the day, but that didn't mean you could sell it - take the Chrysler Airflow for example.

That being said, take any el cheapo economy car of today and you can cruise at 80-90 mph all day with no issues with airbags, really good brakes, good handling and pretty good ergonomics with way better gas mileage than back in the day. I would say that is a large feat of engineering

 

Not true....the engineers back then had a very good knowledge of what they were doing. I wouldn't consider a V12 Packard to be overbuilt....it's a luxury car, and they did a pretty good job of making everything as big/strong as it needed to be, but no more.

And todays engineers are doing a very good job of designing things to work well and last a long time. At least the GM engineers, I don't know about the off-brands

 

My Dad's an engineer (retired). Graduated Purdue Univ. in 1940. One of the big differences between today and back then is that back then engineering students were given hands on experience actually making stuff. Schools back in the day had what were called Material Labs where students would cast, cut and machine metal. So they had practical hands on experience making things that they had designed. I read an article a number of years ago in, I think, Smithsonian Magazine. It was about failures of relatively modern buildings. In it, it talked about how modern engineering students were largely dealing in theoretical design and had very little hands on experience. It showed a photo of the Materials Lab at MIT in the early 1900s, furnaces, forges, lathes, drill presses. They had a photo of the same lab in the late '90s. It was a computer room.

 

1 word \


value engineering

 

I worked part time at a junkyard when I was in engineering school. as far as I know, I was the only one in my class who had a job anything like that....where you can see first hand the results of engineering (good and bad). this was 30 yrs ago

 

And todays engineers are doing a very good job of designing things to work well and last a long time. At least the GM engineers, I don't know about the off-brands[/QUOTE]

Squirrel your not a GM fan are you? or just work there? HA!

 

There were examples of pretty poor engineering results back in the day, too. I remember my dad warning me to never buy a first year model design because you wanted to make sure the bugs got worked out. The Ford V12 had lots of issues, for example.

 

Squirrel missed your last post. You must have got a heck of an education if you worked at a junkyard while going to engineering school.

 

I work with engineers everyday, and I'll take an old guy with an 8th grade education, and hands on experience, over todays, over educated idiots, anyday.

 

i think they did have some smart engineers back then , just check out most any aircraft produced for WWII...some very good stuff. all engineered without any computers , just a slide rule

does anyone remember slide rules? still know how to work one?

 

Sorry guys but blame the bean counters for every bit of what ever you see as a poor engineering be it now or back when ever.

Fact is that back then as now there would be no problem from an Engineering stand point in making far better cars than those on the show room floor, but all the industry cares about is profit.
Hence build quality tends towards the lowest that the market will stand, not the best that we could have made with the available technology.

Not only do I remember slide rules, but I still use mine,
it's faster than an electronic calculator,
and requires no battery.

 

I gave one of my kids a slide rule, he took it to school for a while and bamboozled his teachers...

I've seen some hope that some of the engineering colleges are starting to figure out that hands on teaching is necessary. MIT's Dr. Flowers seems to get it pretty well, we'll see how far he can get spreading the word.

Yeah...bean counters....the engineers job is to do as much as possible with as little as possible. And make it so everything falls apart at once (the end of the design life)

 

I think if todays engineers had the same end goals and purpose, as was the case in the old days, the results would be very similar. Maybe with different esthetics and available tools and materials aside.

The knowledge and approach required for an engineering job, depends on what is being constructed and for what purpose.

If back then things were supposed to be overbuilt, than today things could be thought of being over-engineered. I don't think it's either way or the other.
Good engineering is also finding good balance with the end result that matters, regardless.

 

It's a trade-off... I'm a mechanical designer for a defense contractor, and long before the trades get to cut the first piece of steel or pipe, we've already routed most of it in 3D in AutoCAD to be sure that it'll fit, etc. and we use the "same materials that we've always used". Much of the engineering in the 20th century was "trial and error" because they didn't have the computer design and simulation software that we have now. It was a little more "Build a prototype and see if it blows up. If it doesn't blow up, build a lot more of them!!!" Remember the movies of all of the NASA rockets that were blowing up on the launch pad, or 50' off the ground...??? Glad that we're past that!!! There's still a little of that type of engineering going on, but nowhere near as much as there was back in the 50's, 40's, 30's, etc.

BUT - I also think that maybe all of this software and "that's the way that we've always done it" mentality hinders innovation too. We have a handful of designers that still have a lot to learn about the other things that have to be considered when they do the drawings to install a new piece of machinery or piping on a ship. (Producability, interferences, installation clearance for the mechanic / welder, maintenance envelope, shock & vibration envelopes...) They can draw all day long in AutoCAD, but if you handed them some pipe & some fittings...

 

I help the local high school robotics team...yeah, it's amazing what teenagers these days don't know. I did my first engine overhaul on my own when I was a freshman in high school. dont' see that these days

 

It's all about accountability. Today you may not even see or hear the end result of your "portion" of the project.
We do conveyor systems, one contact, one person to get their hands on if something dosen't work. It's self motivating. By the way, I've worked with and for a lot of Engineers (I are one!) just like any other walk of life there's good and bad.

 

Engineers moto if its not broke take it apart and fix it!

 

I am a mechanical engineer and like any other profession, you can't learn it in a classroom. Especially from a bunch of professors that have never left one....

You make your own experiences. I built SAE mini-baja cars when I was in school and learned more doing that than i ever did in class.However, as a result it took me longer to graduate and my grades suffered as well. No credit for extra curriculur activites.

Internships and Coop jobs are a must in engineering, IMHO.

Your engineering degree will only get you so far without hands on experience in manufacturing processes and materials if you are going to be a mechanical designer.

 

Engineers are for the most part much better equipped to do their jobs today. Not only do they have better book Knowledge, better materials and better software but they also have the practical experience from the past failures to show them what not to do.

I also disagree that cars are not built as well as in the past. Some are not especially the low end ones? Cars of the 30's, 40's and 50's were lucky to make 50,000 miles without major issues and certainly very few would make 100,000 mile even with replaced drive-lines.

I have had three Lincoln cars, 95, 2000 and an 05. The 95 was traded in on the 2000 with 167,000 showing on the indicator and I never even had to change the plugs in it? The 2000 was traded in on the 05 with 135,000 showing and all I had to do to it (other than tires, brakes, oil & filter changes) was to replace the coil packs on the plugs and the plugs. The 05 now has 89,000 on it and no problems so far.

I drive Ford trucks and have had the same experience with each of them but I can sure remember some of the 60's and 70's cars that I had that were just junk after 35 to 45 K miles.

Now if you would like to talk about the design of the body and (sole) of the car then that is a different story all together.

Scott...

 

Well, as a guy with an engineering degree from 2002 I would have to say modern engineers have two big disadvantages. First off are the financial guys. It's pretty much impossible to make a product as the engineer would actually do it, typically what happens is you get the best product the engineer can come up with for a product he thought should cost twice as much to build.

I'll second the hands on experience though, most engineering schools don't do much to teach it and the typical engineering student doesn't have it. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty that do, but they're definitely the minority. The result is designs that look great in the computer but don't work nearly as well in real life.

And as far as auto engineering specifically, the boat load of federal regulations really tie things up. The regulations don't move at the pace of technology, so you can end up being held back by regulations that just don't make sense with newer technology. And computer aided drafting doesn't help. It makes typical tasks faster, but anything that doesn't "fit the mold" of the software can be infinitely more difficult, or even imposible, regardless of whether or not it will work "in real life". The program can only do what it's already been programed to do, so new ideas, theories and innovations may not be possible within the given software. People get drawn into the programs, if it won't let them do something they don't try it, whether or not it would actually be possible.

 

8th Grade Final Exam: Salina, Kansas - 1895
This is the eighth-grade final exam* from 1895 from Salina, Kansas. It was taken
from the original document on file at the Smoky Valley Genealogical Society
and Library in Salina, Kansas and reprinted by the Salina Journal. ​

Grammar (Time, one hour)
1. Give nine rules for the use of Capital Letters.
2. Name the Parts of Speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define Verse, Stanza and Paragraph.
4. What are the Principal Parts of a verb? Give Principal Parts of do, lie, lay and run.
5. Define Case, Illustrate each Case.
6. What is Punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of Punctuation.
7-10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.

Arithmetic (Time, 1.25 hours)
1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts. per bu, deducting 1050 lbs. for tare?
4. District No. 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
5. Find cost of 6720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $.20 per inch?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance around which is 640 rods?
10.Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt.
U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)
1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided.
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus.
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States.
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas.
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, and 1865?

Orthography (Time, one hour)
1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic orthography, etymology, syllabication?
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals?
4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u'.
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e'. Name two exceptions under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: Bi, dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, super.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: Card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences, Cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10.Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.
Geography (Time, one hour)
1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of N.A.
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba, Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fermandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco.
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S.
7. Name all the republics of Europe and give capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
10.Describe the movements of the earth. Give inclination of the earth.
The top of the test states > "EXAMINATION GRADUATION QUESTIONS OF SALINE COUNTY, KANSAS
April 13, 1895 J.W. Armstrong, County Superintendent.Examinations at Salina, New Cambria, Gypsum City, Assaria, Falun, Bavaria, and District No. 74 (in Glendale Twp.)"
According to the Smoky Valley Genealogy Society, Salina, Kansas "this test is the original eighth-grade final exam for 1895 from Salina, KS. An interesting note is the fact that county students taking this test were allowed to take the test in the 7th grade, and if they did not pass the test at that time, they were allowed to re-take it again in the 8th grade."

 

I agree.

Can't imagine a group of engineers sitting around contemplating how to dumb-down their product. It's obvious that people that don't understand will sit around and complain............
The human mind has always been competetive and nowhere in historpy has it failed. Automotive technology grew in leaps and bounds from it's genesis until today. Granted, Unions tended to hold it back, opting for the "status quo", but that was quickly silenced by competition from overseas in the 1950s and '60s, resulting in automakers grabbing their bootstraps just to keep up with Japan and Bavaria.
Modern automotive technology is excellent, Motor technology is unbelievably top-notch. Just because I can't afford a new car don't mean I wouldn't like to have one! Of course, even if I had a new PROWLER, I would still have a lot more grass roots fun driving a Jalopy.

 

There are great engineers, average engineers, and poor engineers, then and now. It's like the old joke about what do you call the man who graduated 198th in his class in medical school - Doctor!

One thing I've noticed about the best engineers I've teamed with - they love what they work on and view their work as more than just a job - they never stop learning, and most study prior art in depth on their own time - they usually have hands-on experience with tools and materials somewhere along the line.

That said, sometimes it's a trap to know too much about past methods if you let it box you into a corner - I once saw a young engineer right out of college design something very important that all the experienced engineers said was impossible.

 

You know the #1 skill necessary to be a good engineer in modern manufacturing??

The interpersonal skills to battle stupid decisions forced onto you by financial people and bosses with tunnel vision. What non-engineers consider engineering comes second. All the brains in the world won't help if you can't win the "corporate" battles.

BTW, back then things had to be robust because of the manufacturing processes. Stuff like thinwall casting had not been perfected yet. If modern technology had been available then, you bet your ass they'd have used it.

 

It is really not the engineering It is the parameters they have to work within. Save a penny here a nickle there. Desighn to just do the job. Make it use less fuel. Use more plastic less steel. Hambers when building their vehicles have the luxury do whatever they wish during their buil provided they have the money. OldWolf

 

Or the infamous "make it cost 10% less every year"......usually about 3 or 4 years into the program it takes somebody real high up to end the madness before all the customers flee. Then they hand out awards, pick another component, and start the madness again