I need a little help... I just got off the phone with the paint store guy and now I am really confused.... I have had my '29 sedan in bare metal for a year in the garage... I used a de-rusting acid type chemcal to clean it a year ago... I put a thin coat of Duraglass over the welds yesterday... I was told by a painter friend and the HAMB helpers to use Dura Glass then Rage Gold THEN spray Etching primer and THEN Hi-build... The paint store guy just told me to re-wash the whole sedan and use epoxy primer... What do I do now??? I am confused...
I'd do what the HAMBERs said. I'd also do most filler work you need to get done to get the body roughed in before you spray the primer. Then either self etching or epoxy and then high build.
I am by no means an expert, but am at about the same stage with my 52. Everyone Ive talked to/ read about says to use epoxy primer over bare metal, then filler. They say that the filler actually sticks to the primer better than the metal. Pat Ghanal wrote a good book on the subject Called "How to Paint Your Car on a Budget" Good Luck
Clean it up then spray epoxy primer then do your bodywork. it'll give you better rust prevention, and better adhesion. Then do your primer.
I'm just going from experience. I have used filler over metal and has adhered just fine. And as far as epoxy vs. etch its really a preference thing between people. One person may say etch and then another epoxy. They both are good rust inhibitors and base primers but you will want to spray a high build over either one.
Every one is going to tell you something different. We all have a process that works well for us. If you are useing modern paint then I would suggest that self etching primer then high build will probably work for you. It works for me. If you are shooting acrylic laques then you'll want to go with a different process. But I'm assumeing that laquer is probably out of the question.
The big deal with puttin bondo over steel is that there can be moisture between the filler and the metal, causing rust. when you epoxy it first you eliminate the chances of that happening. Ever seen rust behind bondo? I have, I've been doin' bodywork since the early 80's
For years I have always put filler over bare metal with no problems. As stated previously it's now standard practice to seal the bare metal then the fillers to eliminate moisture going btwn the bare metal & filler. This process does make sense and I'll start following that procedure from here on out.
I like putting filler on bare metal simply because I don't like sanding epoxy as it gums up the paper as your sanding your filler. Check out this experiment a guy did on epoxy vrs. bare metal. I know that he is obviously biased in his opinion and it probaby influenced his experiment but it is slightly interesting to read anyway.. http://www.autobodystore.com/filler_&_epoxy.shtml
OK I'm a little confused here. How did we get from painting a stripped bare Sedan to smearing mud. I thought the question was all about what is the first thing to shoot on a bare metal body.
This is how I do it too. Epoxy does not have the bight it used to. Make sure all the products are compatible. I use all the same brand, read every P sheet.
There's some conflicting information here. First the OP. Some people might say to use Duraglass over the weld seams first because it is waterproof. That, IMO is a crutch for people not wanting to take the time to make sure there weld seam is 100%. If you fully weld off a seam like you should with no pinholes, the Duraglass ins't needed. The etching ----> high build is correct, though I'm not super keen on shooting it over filler. (even though many people do it) HRB - Filler will stick to certain primers better than it sticks to bare metal. Consult your tech sheets to make sure its OK and be sure to rough up the primer before the filler. Matt Kvamme - Chances are you are using a non-sanding epoxy, that is why it is gumming up the paper. PPG's DP line are all non-sanding, meaning you need to use a sandable primer on top of it. They are a waste of time IMO because they add a step. As said, you'll get alot of opinions and many will contradict the other. I like to use as few products as possible for primer/high build/etc. If you etch, then you need a high build urethane to block, then you need a sealer. 3 products. The primer I use (HOK KP2CF Epoxy) is a high-build sandable epoxy for use over bare metal and all the rest. It does the job of all 3 of those products mentioned above. My process is this: finish metalwork completely, epoxy primer, filler, epoxy primer, guide coat/block, sealer, topcoat. Done.
there is about a million ways to do it and whatever way you do it itll never be as good as the paint that was on it. I dont care what you say original paint is the best cant ever beat it. honestly though you could do it any of these ways and you shouldnt have any problems
Hey, I've never been a fan of filler over anything but bare, well ground metal i.e. 24 or 36 grit grinder marks! Especially dissimilar filler materials such as heavy resin fillers, and talc based fillers; that's askin' alot of that chemical bond of a primer to filler repair. If you have moisture going through the top coat and being soaked up by fillers below your finish, sealer, epoxy, surfacer and or epoxy/etch coat that paint job is toast! Don't waste your time on ''check me-fuck me'' heavy resin fillers to cover a welding job that was as worthless as mule cum to begin with! Weld the repair correctly to begin with, bump the metal up to a level that will require a minumal amount of filler, and none of this 3/8'' thick shit, either. If you select to go with an etching primer (always over bare metal only) never over plastic filler, be forwarned! Some etching primers are NOT TO BE USED under plastic fillers! The acid in them will attack and lift the filler. Always check the label of the product before use! Swankey Devils C.C. "Spending A Nation Into Generational Debt Is Not An Act Of Compassion!"
You cant go wrong with that process.... To answer your original question...I would not put etch primer on top of filler.
Thanks Guys! I went to the store and picked up my supplies... now all I have to do is find the time to finnish welding the roof in... Jay
I try to read the directions on the label, myself. It has always been epoxy on bare metal, filler, surfacing primer, sealer, top coat [color, clear]. You can put filler on bare metal, but the filler has no properties to deter corrosion, so it is possible that corrosion you can't see will continue after the filler is applied and, maybe, some day, it will come off. Epoxy primer doesn't guarantee this won't happen, but it cuts the odds a few thousand times. Many people get away with odd methods, but I have a Falcon in the driveway that is rusting through the paint because an epoxy primer wasn't used.
as said, ask 10 painters, get 11 different answere, lol actually , both methods will work, depending on your situation. if you are doing it at home, in your spare time, by all means coat it with epoxy, then do your filler as you go along. guys in shops that are gettin the work out will fill right over bare metal. there is nothing at all wrong with that method either. its the fill over bare metal , then let it set for long periods that cause the trouble, and usually winds up trapping mositure i do most of my filler work over bare metal ,etch, then prime, and cure the primer with a trisk infra red to shrink it up and get rid of the moisture oif any, also dont be afraid of etching over filler, its not gona hurt anythhing, though many primers wont require that you do. as they say there is more than one way to skin a cat, but given the choice, i like to fill over bare metal(clean bare metal) naturally it has to be suitably roughed up, or it aint gonna stick skull
im guessing you used ppgs metal prep? if so just go over the whole thing again with it and then shoot some epoxy over everything then when you finish your body work shoot it with a high build primer(personally i like ncp280) if you did use metal prep dont shoot it with wash primer(etch primer) or you may have problems with it later.....and for the record you dont want to shoot etch primer over any mud...it can cause adhesion issues later(not always but may)
This is taken from the Evercoat website. In case anyone wants to know what the makers of the product suggest. Either way it probably doesn't matter. As long as you have a good surface to start with in the first place. Don't go thinking that epoxy is going to cure any rust problems. Although it will probably slow it down. <TABLE id=37_Table1 style="BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>Q. Can Evercoat fillers be applied over bare metal? Can they be applied over paint? </TD></TR><TR id=37_answerRow><TD>A. Our fillers are designed to work over bare, properly prepared substrates such as: steel, aluminum, galvanized, stainless steel, fiberglass, and SMC. Some people prefer applying an epoxy primer over bare substrates to enhance corrosion protection. Our products dont need to be applied over an epoxy for corrosion protection as long as the bare surface area is clean and no surface rust or contamination is present. However, some auto manufacturers do require body technicians to coat the bare metal surface with an epoxy before applying fillers. If you are performing warranty work, you should consult the manufacturer of the automobile for the recommended procedure. Fillers and putties will normally work OK over properly sanded (80-180 grit) cured OEM paint. However, with so many different types of aftermarket paint available (lacquer, enamel, urethane, water-based). We recommend that all paint be removed where filler is to be applied. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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