Can you build a hot rod without a dial indicator?

Hey for one, i'd like to thank you for posting this,....it should be in everyone'e garage to look up and read once in a while,....for me its actually a good go getter attitude, as weird as it might sound,..inspirational. Serioulsy, Thank you for posting this!

 

Yes but you cant put rear end gears in without one!

 

Actually I thought this was a nice adult discussion of the original question. I didn't notice any bickering or name calling. I was pleasantly surprized.

The thought behind it was to let some of the young guys know that you can build a very nice and safe hotrod with a string and a framing square. You don't have to have thousands of dollars in tools or pay someone that does, to get a nice hot rod. I've known a few perfectionists over the years but they seem to rarely get anything on the road. It wasn't meant to pit one style against the other.

 

Hey Tommy

Forget about mic's and get yourself a real good wooden yard stick and go from there
"Doc"

 

...I agree with Tommy, like I always say "we ain't buildin no nuclear plant". I too build my stuff with a tape, grinder and stick welder and torch and sometimes a big hammer! I tend to refer to my style as "farm tech", built with common sense from what you've got layin around. I've had very good luck buildin and drivin my stuff for over 30 years now...but I spose a lot of it just mite be common sense or good luck. Too many guys make things into a big production, that's no fun.

 

I've seen some guys who could build a car 1,000 times better than me no matter which tools I had and no matter which tools they had. Simple truth - some guys are better than others. So those of us who still have a bunch of learnin to do give it our best shot to improve - I just don't see the down side in that. The idea that only guys who "don't know" have to measure is well ... hilarious. Since building cars is fun - why should I have to rush so fast to get it done??? I have other cars to drive - what's the hurry?? I have to agree with the comments about building it for YOURSELF and to hell what everyone else thinks (just keep 'em safe). I take pride in making something "just right" - sometimes I do that with an indicator other times with a hammer - and on occasion with both at the same time!

My other confusion is the guys who take such great pride in bashing those who have better tools than they do. I built my first car with a hack saw and stick welder - I broke things - I fixed them - some several times over. I still own that car - I've had it 25 years now. It took me 30 plus years to get a Bridgeport - I sure as hell don't NEED it to build a car, and I won't apologize for having it either. Tools save time - nothing more.
Become what you admire! I admired those who can tackle anything - so that's what I strive for - simple.


Norm Abrams (sp?) or Roy the Woodwright - either one can build you a chair.

 

so who has more fun???

 

I'd bet each one will say, " I do" !

We all build different cars (hopefully) and we all build them differently and we all enjoy them differently - nothing wrong in that!

 

Of course you have to have string and a framing square..to mark the centerline on the frame table

Most of the good builders I know fall into the great grey middle ground.... A few really nice tools, some OK ones, and a lot of good homemade stuff. Perfection is a good goal, because it usually results in "very good", not perfect. At the same time, you can't sweat every last little tiny thing (kinda like my water pump deal).

Myself, I just recently switched from regular Sharpies to the Ultra Fine Sharpie. Makes a huge difference when you're trying to make more than one thing from the same pattern

 

I'm trying to rebuild a 66 Mustang along with the Locost "hot rod". The Mustang is not in bad shape apart from the normal rust you would expect. But it is a real PITA to replace sheetmetal because nothing on that damn car is square or true. There is as much as 3/8" difference from one side of the car to the other, and that's on a car that's never been hit.

I thought it was just mine, but measuring some things on my friend's concours resto Mustang showed the same lousy production tolerances. I figure the 1/8" difference in the Locost from side to side must be pretty damn good compared to what Ford slapped together.

 

like my ol man says

measure it with the mic
mark it with chalk
cut it with a chopping axe

screw the dial calipers and mics

tape, level and eyeball

 

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1741952#post1741952

This post says it much better than my limited use of the english language.

 

Whats a dial indicator?

 

You can build a great hot rod without Boyd's awesome shop with billions in equipment. One proof is when you get the thing on the ground and running.......and drive it over to an alignment shop, then after pulling it on the rack and setting it up, the front end guy says "all I need to do is pinch the toe a sixteenth and you are good". The last two cars me and Flower built each have over 9000 road miles and we've done nothing but change the oil and drive them.

 

It wasn't until a I started welding class that I noticed most welds that are actually holding stuff together look pretty ragged.

 

You should take a different class then.

 

Ah nah, nothing like that. Its just that log trucks, equipment, trailers, about everything I've seen thats been used and abused for a long time and still held together has some pretty shoddy looking beads laid down on them (Or holding them together). And they still work even with all the abuse and stress put on them.

 

Hi i built my car frame and all with a tape measure and that cheap dial indicator from sears just to get the pinion angle right car go's staight stops on a dime and i run the hell out of it with no problems. Build you car the way you are used to the only thing is the pinion angle.
AND DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT !!!!!!!!

 

i built my chassis on an unlevel dirt floor, the front half from scratch and boxed the back. all i needed was enough scissor jacks and a level, tape measure, angle finder helped, lots of clamps. now i have a cement floor, and remeasured everything thinking it would all be wrong, nope. it just takes time going slow and making sure each weld works more than looks. Beauty is only skin deep, i worry more about penetration than how it looks. Fastest i am probably going to go is 80 miles and thats to pass someone. I am not building a car for 200,300 mph. The original model a's were simple and they spent alot more time "off roading" than most of these new trucks and they held together ( just thought i would put that in there when you see guys with 6 inch lifts on there super 4x4s, i know those speed bumps are high but its a little overkill). I am sure we all spend a lot more time making sure everything is perfect then henrys assembly line. I think i have measured my frame 20 times to make sure its still square after every move a few times too. tie rods are adjustable, split wishbones are adjustable

 

With all the bolt-on stuff, if you start from the right car and you don't try to do anything that isn't all that common to do already, I don't see why you need any particularly fancy tools. The most complicated thing that is probably a necessity is a gauge for checking the pinion angle. The rest is just measure twice, measure again for good measure, then cut or weld.

On the other hand if you want to build something from scratch, put something together like a Nash 327 V8 with a T5 trans and a blower, that sort of thing - you may need more than just basic tools.

 

Except for the engine and drive train, most cars (at least the older ones) were built with a tolerance of +/- 0.125". You don't need an indicator to get it within that tolerance range.

 

I believe in measuring and double checking. But I know many a "builder" who starts out with a micrometer and ends up with a hatchet.

 

I'm a proud dinosaur too. I like the old folding carpenter's ruler. They make a great hgt gauge especially when you work alone. I have several for just that. A level base is all you need and you can get it with shims and some att'n to detail. I've tubbed and chassied a bunch of cars and not one on a surface plate. Junk? Every one of em hooks hard and goes straight over a decade later.

Now, creating a perfect surface for paint is a different gig. But you got me thinkin...I wonder if a dial indicator would show me the highs n lows better?

 

The only thing you will need is The tool for setting pinion angles,and Also for radius rods and kingpins and a level.So I would say no.You always need tools to get the job done right' By eye is only good in body work....

 

Originally Posted by tommy
The thought behind it was to let some of the young guys know that you can build a very nice and safe hotrod with a string and a framing square. You don't have to have thousands of dollars in tools or pay someone that does, to get a nice hot rod.


Used to be an aircraft tool and die machinist, became a licensed aircraft mechanic with inspection authorization.

Its amazing considering how precision the tooling is made how low tech and simple the actual structures are made.

Same works for our cars. I have the high tech tools, but most of the building is done with a tape measure, a bubble level and for the critical angles a magnetic plastic dial protractor to set angles and such.

Our HA/GR build,
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=189651
is a good example of chalk lines on the floor, "tape measure tech" and backyard engineering. Not really rocket surgery, but will be a kick in the butt when it's done.

Common sense goes a long way, but seems very short in supply these days.

 

Should I bite on a 2 year old thread???

Hmm... a little...

It is great to be able to draw on a huge knowledge pool where lots of folks provide input. This can be a huge help.

On the other side of the coin, there are a lot of people on here who do work at such an impressive level that some of my work looks like..... well,,, shit...

But once I get past this, it is mostly all good... except for when problems arise when some people who really like to do things "right" fail to recognize that sometimes there is more than one version of "right".

Or then you get someone who reads a statement in a book somewhere, like "Ideally a universal joint used in a driveshaft should not excede 3 degrees in angle under any circumstances".... and then they rabidly defend this position even though the book was strictly talking about Indy cars.

 

For me the answer is "No". I also was a tool maker for a major airline for 33 years and an A&P mechanic. I like running machines and making stuff. That's why I do it. It's not the destination, it's the journey

 

I'd rather have a car thats not quiet perfect than one thats never finshed because somebodys never satisfyed and trying to improve it all the time.

 

These last few posts are great, and really reassure me that there are still lots of great builders out there who know the difference between doing it right and nit-picking everything to death. Having said that, here's a few of my brain farts on the subject: My first rod was built by my Dad and I in a wooden-floored garage. There's pics of it on my profile page, and I think it turned out great. It also drove very well, and before I parked it, I had put over 100,000 miles on it. The most precision tools used in that build were a tape measure and a level.
A local pro shop milked over $100,000 out of a customer building a neat looking, fenderless A sedan, and showed it off at a local barbeque. My Dad was looking it over and noticed it had negative caster in the axle! The top of the axle actually leaned forward! I cannot imagine how it drove, but the builder claimed it was aligned to the specs supplied by SAC, where he bought the axle. This car has been shown at the Grand National Roadster Show, and I even saw a pic of it here once. The rest of the car is equally scary, but built by "professionals" without an ounce of common sense.
One of my brother's race car buddies noticed a slight vibration (it later turned out to be a wheel bearing) in my brother's sedan. He got down on his knees and looked at the pinion angle and told my brother that the pinion angle was way off. I had recently made a new panhard bar mount for the car, and while I thought I checked it, I rechecked it with an angle finder and found the angles to be right and my brother's know-it-all freind to be wrong. I also found a shitload (technical term) of 90wt oil all over the inside of one of the rear tires, indicating a wee problem with the previously mentioned bearing. One of my former co-workers is into live steam locomotives and has been building his own since around 1990. It's a work of art, with magnificent details everywhere. It's also not finished, as of the last time I spoke with him. For those keeping score at home, that means he's been building a frigging model train for the last 19+ years of his life!!!!! I'm all for details, but doncha think he'd like to see it finsihed before he dies? Sometimes "close enough" is fine.

 

Funny this old thread came up again. I have been thinking about this lately. I'm ok with all the over engineering, make it complicated or overly ornate "just because I can," but what gets me is putting it under the cloak of a traditional ride. I'm not bagging anyone, because I have a ton of respect for the workmanship. I know that is so cliche' but I mean that sincerely, not like type of respect for Boydster billet rods (meaning I really hate the cars, but the guys that build them have talent), but true respect. It's just not my cup-o-tea.