Well, I've been looking for a cadillac 500 for my 29 A and found a running one with the trans ("I Thought"). I talked to the guy today and he said it was out of a 72 Deville. I may be wrong, but I thought only the El Dorado's had the 500's until 1975. So I'm assuming its a 472 and just wanted some opinions from some more experienced guys with Caddy motors. Is the 472 a good choice to go with or should I just hold out and keep looking for a 500? Any help is greatly appreciated Thanks
It should be fine. Externally they are the same and that thing will pull that a faster than a person with any degree of sanity wants to ride in it. If you don't have them pick up the books from MTS aks Maximum Torque Specialties as they have a wealth of info on those engines. Big inch Cadillac by Doc Frohmander is one of them that I have Most of it is about getting huge ci out of them but there is a lot of info on what fits what.
'73 or earlier 472 will be hard to beat with a 500. I've had both, and the wornout 472 could kick the 500's ass anyday. Avoid '74 models. They are a slightly strange breed.
Own and drive both like I have, you'll see what I mean. The '73 472 was much better on takeoff than the '71 500. Both were stock, the 472 was wornout (166k miles), and the 500 was rebuilt by Self of Durant, Ok. All the bases were covered and I don't give a shit what the specs say, I liked the 472 better.
A lot of other factors are involved there aye. eg gear ratios, tyres etc... '73 472 = 220 HP & 365 ft.lbs '71 500 = 345 HP & 500 ft.lbs ??
Okay, I see what you mean. The 1971 models were measured in brake horsepower the 1973 models were measured in SAE net horsepower at the rear wheels. Can't remember which way 1972 went, I think it showed higher numbers too. Bad thing is, the books/specs have never been rewritten as far as I know to show how similar they really are.
there was a HUGE drop in compression during thos years- from 10.5:1 down to like 8 or 8.5:1, which explains alot of the power drop. 472 is an easier revving mill due to less stroke. the heads are high nickel content that dont need hardened seats unless repairing them. juggling the stock available parts you can get 7.5 up to 12.5 to 1 compression. i've got a CadCo pan and specially angled hipo oil pump to put on into most cars from '50s on, but i dont know about older frame/crossmembers (had it in an 81 regal, but for sale now) after '68 they use a BOP bellhousing instead of dedicated caddy pattern, so tranny fitment is cake. and they are light (big empty hollow castings) (about 1 1/2" wider than bigblock chevy) -rick
Not if you get the right years! I've had a 69 DeVille w/ a 375hp 472 & I currently have a 1970 Eldorado and it's 400 horse 550 lb/ft of torque! It's kind of rare as it was the 1st year (Eldo only) for 500 c.i. and the last year for high performance/ high compression. That 472 was a good runner and would smoke the tires on that mega boat w/ probaby 2.73:1 gears. But that 500 is a torque monster! The same torque rating as a 7.3L Powerstroke. I've got dual glasspacks on it and it sounds great! Not too great on gas though...
Passes everything on the road except a gas station eh? I'd use the 472 if it's available, there's not that big a difference between the two, if you really have a hardon for the 500, you can always get one later and it will be a bolt in to swap it.
Above, all true. Have a '68 472 in my '36 that was in my '48 prior to this build. Just got it running and drove yesterday for the first time. It pulls like frieght train on steroids. I built it with 10:1 comp, cam from MTS, it's .060 over, so it's just a hair under 500 cid, and it is, not to brag, the coolest sounding thing I've ever heard!
First released in 1968 as a 472. In 1970, a stroked 500 cid version was released for the eldorado In [about] 1974, the 472 was dis-continued, and the 500 was the only caddy engine offered. Sometime around 1978, it was re-designed as the 425. It's basically the same block, but it got the "pontiac 301" treatment with thinner castings and cost cutting. About the same time, the 368 came out. Again, same block design, but even thinner castings. E.F.I. was first released on the 1973 Eldo 500, and FI remained an option untill the caddy spacific motor was axed in 1984. It uses the same basic components as the 80's model Camaro TPI 305 V8, so there's actually pretty good support for bigger injectors and what not. The Megga-squirt is very popular with the Caddy F.I. crowd. All 472's and RWD 500's use a front sump oil pan and pickup All front wheel drive 500's use a rear sump pan and pickup All 368's and 425's use a mid sump pan and pickup You can not use a front sump pan in anything except a cadillac chassis. The rear sump eldo pan is the choice pan for swaps, but they are rare and $$$$. The mid sump pan will work for about 90% of the swaps. Sometimes slight clearance issues pop up, but it's cheaper to bang a dimple with a hammer than it is to shell out $500 for a good eldo pan. The caddy engine uses an external oil pump that sticks out of the engine at a very bizarre angle. The pump from a 425/368 is much smaller and as such, much more swap friendly. The 368/425 pump will bolt onto a 472/500. The front timing cover on the 368/425 is an improved design over the older 472/500, and it mounts the more modern acessory brackets. Stock caddy intake manifolds are a disaster for a "hot performance" engine. They do flow fine for a granny-mobile, but.... They can be ported to improve flow, but $$$$ to do it. The 368 uses a single plane aluminum intake, while all the others are cast iron dual planes. If you can find a 368 alum intake, grab it up quick!!! While it wont really improve performance, the weight savings are well worth the swap. The edelbrock intake is, however, simply superior. The caddy engine uses the same exhaust port spacing and layout as a BBC. To put headers on one, order for a BBC for your chassis, and cut/weld a flange kit to fit the caddy. There are a couple outfits offering block hugger headers that might work for you also. Evil-bay always has a few sets available. 1974 and up motors all used the HEI. Pre '74 all use standard GM points dizzy. Do not under any circumstances mix-n-match cadillac heads without doing a lot of homework first. Late 425 heads had tiny combustion chambers and small ports. Early 472/500 heads had huge combustion chambers and ok sized ports. Putting late heads on an early motor will give you 13:1 compression and ports too small to feed the engine. Early heads on a late motor gives 6:1 compression. There are no prefered, or "good performance" heads. All early heads flow about the same. All late heads flow about the same... But there is pleanty of meat in the castings to port them to flow very well. Factory caddy cams are extremely mild, and fall flat at ~4000 rpm's. While this is fine for building massive torque, it's not much fun. A cam swap is tops on my list, and the caddy responds very well to an upgraded bump-stick. The valve-train is the #1 performance limiting factor in a caddy motor. The rocker studs are pressed in and can come out if you build power or RPM's. There are kits from MTS and CMD to upgrade the rockers. Because of their "factory de-tuned" nature, caddy's respond VERY WELL to all the traditional hot rod tuning tricks. Caddy cranks are MASSIVELY strong. I dont think I'v ever heard of one breaking, but,,, all caddy's use cast arma-steel connecting rods [like a pontiac]... Fine for under 5000 rpm, but if your going to build power, then forged rods are advisable. Old-school Oldsmobile "425" rods can be made to work, and Ford 460, Olds 403, and BBC 502 pistons can be massaged to fit inside a big caddy... Not for the beginner. The caddy motor was never offered with a manual tranny, but aftermarket suppliers have come to the rescue... Good luck making a saginaw,,, or even a muncie live for very long behind 650 ft/lbs tho. They all used the standard BOP bellhousing. All RWD 425's used a short shaft T-400... Good source for these trannies, but the valve bodies ~suck ass~ as they were designed for low RPM luxo-barges. Get the VB from a Buick 455 equiped car, as they were designed with performance in mind. As stated earlier, the 78-84 caddy "de-ville" chassis is the same as a Chevy Caprice. If you can score the frame pads and motor mounts from one of these, you can practically bolt a big caddy into any GM chassis that had a SBC in it. The Q-jet used on all 425's is actually the "big" 850 model. Tho it's de-tuned for the "caddy ride", it makes an EXCELLENT foundation for a performance Q-jet buildup. The Caddy 500 is extremely light weight for it's CID size. Only about 70 lbs more than a SBC. If you top it with an aluminum intake, it's about the same weight as a mouse motor, so upgrading the suspension for BB weight is not alays nessecary... Tho you will need to upgrade for big power Caddy's produce a tremendous ammount of heat... Dont skimp on the radiator!!! Consider an oil cooler as well as a trans cooler when building one. So........................... Here's tha basic shopping list for a street thumper caddy mill that wont break the bank: *500 cid long block from any 70-77 full sized caddy *Alum intake from a 79-84 Caddy 368 [mostly eldorado's] *78-82 425 equiped DeVille for the: carburetor distributor Radiator oil pump Oil pan with pickup [unless you got the eldo 500] timing cover ~all~ acessories, brackets, pullies, fan and clutch, etc. Transmission [with input yoke] Motor mounts with frame pads *Valve body from a 68-76 Big block buick car Then buy accordingly: *Cam from MTS or CMD. The biggest one that uses the stock valvetrain *valve springs *.030 over stock replacement 10:1 pistons *rings, bearings, gaskets, timing chain *Stock T-400 rebuild kit *T-400 shift kit *1800-2200 stall converter *block hugger headers *Water pump, belts, hoses, etc. Then modify accordingly: *Send the carb to John Osbourne or Jim Wiese *Send the dizzy to GMC BUBBA [30-36* total advance, all in by 2400 R's] *Gasket match intake runners to a depth of 1 1/2 inch. Clean up all casting flash, blend the bowls, smooth the radius around the valve stem area... Dont hog 'em, just clean them up real nice. Blend and radius exhaust side also *clean out all oil passages. De-burr any obvious casting flash, chamfer the mains. *Dont get in over your head if your a newbie!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then assemble accordingly: *Quality machine work with attention to detail *Clean working environment *Set the cam and timing "straight up", or as per your cam suppliers directions *Stock valve job *Pack the oil pump with vasseline [remember, it's external] and rebuild it The above combo is good for an earth twisting 475 hp and 600 ft/lbs, and can be done for under $2400 if you shop around and are capable of doing some of the work yourself. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->__________________
One thing I left out, be sure to grab the oil dipstick and tube from the 425! All the above info is a copy and paste from a post I did on this thread: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=318807 Lots of good info there! BTW, Brian, Congrats on the first run!!!!!!
If your putting one in a Model A you won't need the rear sump Eldo oil pan. This is usually only a issue when putting one in a late model GM A-body, etc. With the pump being external on the front of the motor the front sump pan has the shortest oil pickup tube getting oil to the pump faster on startup. I'm running a '75 500 in my model A now. Completly stock except for lake headers. The car only weighs 2500 pound and on 8.90-16 bias plys its a little hard to apply it to the pavement once in a while.
Alot of good points here but you gotta remember that even the smog 472 still has lots of power. Accordiing to guys on another forum that I belong to, the power ratings were dropped only by 15 per cent net to keep the gov. happy and those drops were in the heads. My 74 472 has huge chambers and shitty valves BUT it still comes out to 330 hp and 460 tq. and that's the weakest 472 going. Tall gears so you let the torque pull ya through and keep rpms under 4200 because the rocker ass. is weak enough to pop the keepers off and let a lifter come out and lay in the block unless you spends big bucks to buy the new stuff from MTS so that doesn't happen. The great engines that last a long time if you take care of them so jump in and go for it
We've done a couple of 472 / 500 swaps into late 70's malibus. Great swap once you've done it once. Most of what we do has been echo'd above. We used the 70 - 72 year motors with the BBC headers redone for the Caddy. Absolutely the best thing you can do for these motors is swap the intake for an aftermarket unit. Drops 40 pounds off of the front of the car and improves performance like no other single change you can do. With this change, the wieght of the caddy is actually less than a BBC. We leave the heads alone for the most part. Just a clean up and a once over. We drop in the biggest cam we can get from Summit / Jegs. Update the carb and ignition and let her fly. These cars with a T400 and 3.73 gears have been good for mid 12's @ 108 mph all the while never taking it above 5800 rpm. All with an engine we have less than $2000 invested. ($400 for the intake alone) We've gone different directions with our projects lately so we never got into the aftermarket head world for these things. They are not cheap but apparently are very good. You can even get an 8-71 blower kit for them The Scout in my avatar came dangerously close to getting an .060 over 500 caddy with bulldog heads and intake. We would be talking 500 or so Hp at 5000 rpm with about 600 ft/lbs starting at 3000 rpm
472 ran a 472 in dads 1969 caddy at beline dragway all stock 4 door hard top ran easy 16's was strong motor would nice motor to have for rod today freinds where laughing but i was beeting there chevys
in the new car craft's june 09 issue on page 26 there is a guy in spokane, washington that built a 500ci 4dr 1975 caddie,, talk about different,, he put a 8v-92 diesiel turbo off a KW on his 8:5 compression motor and this boat runs 13;s at 106mph in the 1/4 mile,, not bad for a tank!!
Call it 450 hp and 575 tq for a 472. Every thing that can be done to the 500 translates directly to the 472. B.B. Caddy's are absolutely the best bang for the buck! You can put together a complete stump pulling caddy for about the cost of a BBC core!
76 was the last year of the 500. 75 & 76 were the only years it was available in the regular Cadillac. Also the only sure way to know if it's a 472 or 500 is remove a plug and check the stroke, everything else is the same. Don't depend on it being a 500 just because the year is right. A number of years ago I got a 75 Deville which from the factory had a 500 the vin verified that. But after pulling it I happened to check the stroke and it was a 472 when a car is 25-30 years old who knows whats been changed in the past
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