Pretty sad isnt it , I have never done panel work but I guess its like say a honda civic comes in with a dented door , they can just go down to the wreckers get a new door and probably have it done in a couple of hours . Can't do that with an old car . I did work experiance in a mechanic shop for a little while and the mechanic there used to tell me all sorts of stories about ringing up manufacturers trying to find parts for old euro cars or even japanese cars and dealing with manufacterers who dont want anything to do with the car because its over a certain age . Must be a hundred times worse for old american stuff . Hope you get your car sorted out .
You got that right. I worked in a GM dealer for 13 yrs. I could book over 20 hours in an 8 hour day when it was real busy. And at nearly $30 an hour I was cleaning up. And with no expenses, I was just a technician. Now, I'm lucky to book 6 hrs a day working 10-12 and for 60 an hour. After I pay the rent, phone, heat, electric, etc. I'm lucky to have ramen noodles for dinner. There's a lot of days, like today, where I wonder if I should throw out all the old/custom stuff and put up a sign for general repairs.
I'm with you mike47. from an early 90's GM tech... Here's to gravy! as a shop owner, our bread and butter is late model computer stuff. it pays really well for what it is. we also do a fair amount of old car stuff. we have a number of elderly customers who are original owners as well as enthusiasts. if its something simple like maintenance, tune up or brakes etc, we treat it like anything else but always tell the customer that there is a POTENTIAL that because of the age of the car it might take time to find/fix this or that if it goes beyond first glance (which if you've been involved with old cars for any length of time, you know it probably will). we ALWAYS tell the customer who wants custom/involved work like this... "if you're in a rush, and you want it now, you will pay for every minute we spend on the car at the shop labor rate including time on the phone, chasing parts, fixing somebody else's hacks, chasing our tails etc... if you can be patient, we'll flat rate it and eat the in between time. just know that when a quick pay job comes in, it takes priority." if a customer is exceptionally cool and/or patient i'll even discount a job to reward loyalty, trust etc. most people are cool when they weight the options. case in point. a buddy comes in with a 65 impala that hasn't been started in two years and has NO brakes. he wants a disc brake conversion. okay. needs rear wheel cylinders. no sweat. NOW we get to FIND a suitable disc brake kit to work with 14" daytons, drive to get it, spend over an hour and a half trying to remove a wheel cylinder anchor, fuss with rounded off fittings, spend an hour on the phone with a vendor trying to make heads or tails of a kit with NO instructions, and 4 different employees giving four different sets of instructions on how to mount the booster, spend most of a day figuring out the plumbing, building all new hard lines and chasing adapters and hardware, adjust the pushrod, bleed the brakes, go find different knockoffs for the wheels, and we STILL need to drain the gas tank, adjust the carb, change out all of the positive wiring from the battery due to a WAY oversized terminal installed by a 'performance audio' guy and put it on the ground. we"ll probably have an EASY 20+ hours in actual hands on work time so far not including the thinking things thru part, and its been tying up a rack for a WEEK and will probably not leave til thursday, and i might be able to eek out 5-6 hours with almost NO parts profit. 14 hrs X 85/hr... either way, you do the math. communication is the #1 thing in this biz... from both ends. we ALL have to make a living.
I'm with Alterdpilot. I had a conversation with a guy this weekend who's the shop manager at the local Chrysler store in our little town. It's a family owned business, he, his brother and sister in law run the dealership their Dad started in the 60's. He told me that they lose money on every older car that comes in for even the simplest repair. This is a rural, rustbelt area, lots of 15 year old clunkers, lots of rusty brake lines and fuel lines. Fighting with rusty fasteners, chasing parts, making parts, making do, there's no flat rate manual that takes into account all those things. His statement was, "I can't charge somebody 8 hours of shop time to replace two brake lines, and hand somebody a bill for 500 dollars on a 200 dollar car." At the same time, they feel obligated to repair something unsafe as best they can, for people they have had as customers for years, but can't afford better. It's tough.
Alot of great points by eddytheb, mike47, and alienbaby17,alteredpilot I own a shop in Jacksonville FL and we are the ONLY shop that specializes in classic & antique cars. You spend alot of time tracking down hard to find parts that you can't charge the customer for. Our shop rate is $75 an hour when Tire Kingdom across the street is $110. Older cars take alot of time to do the job correctly and neatly. There comes a point when taking the time to do a good job and dragging your feet get mixed up. Next time before you drop your car off at Joey Bagadoughnut's repair shop spend some time looking for a shop that specializes in older cars. I mean you don't ask the dentist to fix your broken arm, the right shop for the right job. As for the gas tank repair I was going to get into the gas tank repair and intigrate it into the restoration part of my shop, but the cost of the oven is around 14k. I see your in Texas, I bet they sent the tank to Don Hart in Houston. I send him tanks from FL because he's the closest one who does a good job with a lifetime warranty.
Damn this thread makes me shake my head. If you can't make a profit working at shop rate, why the hell is your shop rate set that low? Are you a business or a charity? A real-world trend I've noticed.... Shop rate is not tied to talent. It's tied to self-confidence and an internal belief about what they're worth. There will always be talented guys looking around and wondering how those other flashy hacks are charging so much.
Don't feel bad, a buddy of mine took a Big Block Ford cammer to a very well known engine builder and told him no real rush, I'm still putting the car together. A bit over 3 years later I helped him him pick it up.
Ah, the glamour of owning your own old car shop. I talk to lots of people who think working on those old cars aould be fun, Yeah right buddy. I tell them that your work will look good going down the road but when reality sets in and the bill come poutring in and you don't have money to pay them then how does that cool car you built look now. wHILE
3 weeks isn't bad but at least your relizing this early. My 51 has been gone for the better part of two years (off and on) due to a cracker ass shop and the extenuating circumstances that go back directly to them and their sloven business practice. My decision, a bad one at that, but my fault for letting them string me a long and not doing something earlier....
That's the problem. Guys who shouldn't be doing this type of work are and it makes competition for a guy who should be doing it. Usually the talented guys love what they do and like to help people get their vehicles to where they want so they go by the labor of love rule. That results in a more than fair price. The hacks think they are doing good (they aren't) and think they have the right to charge $100+ an hour for labor. They usually are in it for the quick cash. They usually don't last long. Also just 'cause your shop is big or has cool old parts hanging on the walls does not mean you can be expensive. I know you have overhead but you should have talent to justify the cost as well.
Well, yeah, if Octoberflames is $35/hour lower and doing real work, then he needs to raise his rate. "Real customers",especially in this economic time, aren't looking for the cheapest, they are looking for quality work and satisfaction for the money they spend. As for frequently repeated (in my business, there is never a "routine" procedure), new work procedures paying the bills when the real work and satisfaction is the one-off challenging job,that's probably true in every profession. In my vet job, I can castrate a dozen cats in the time it takes me to do one cruciate ligament repair and earn twice as much money. And just my surgical fees for the cruciate run $350/hour-and I'm not a specialist. If you think that's high, a veterinary surgical specialist,doing the same procedure charges 2-3x as much and if you really want fun, price out what a physician charges to do the same procedure (add some zeros). Of course, we have to do it while the motor is running and not have any leftover parts.
Why would I want to raise my hourly rate? I have alot of customers and alot of work. I am fortunate enough to do what I love and I try to provide a quality service at a fair price. I'm not complaining that I'm not making any money. I'm just expressing that when you work on antiques it's time consuming and you want to be fair to the customer. I worked as a Toyota master tech for 6 years and decided it wasn't for me. I could walk into a dealership today and have a job, it's just not what I want. I work hard, charge a fair price, I'm honest and I take pride in my work. I hate to hear these horror stories, but once again as the customer it is your responsibility to do some sort of checking into the place before you drop off an antique for any type of work.
Three weeks ain't real bad. I know a guy who took his car to a paint shop for minor body work and a custom paint job. Three years later, body work done, but still no paint. He finally pulled it. Shop just kept pushing his work back for other customers. Got ugly at the end.
Because Tire Kingdom "across the street" is grossing almost 50% more per hour than you are. Because each employee working at that rate grosses $70,000 per year more than you do. Because even raising your price to $85/hr would increase a worker's gross $20K. No one is doubting your honesty,integrity, workmanship or skill. In fact, you are justly proud of it. And if you are satisfied with your income and content with what you charge, far be it from me to criticize. The point is, that if you are not charging the going rate for your area, you are cheating yourself and you are telling your customers "I am not worth what Tire Kingdom charges". Just MTC
This is all so very close to my heart and with out sounding bitter the reality is, if its getting pushed aside you are most likely not paying what its worth to put your car front and center.
Heres how we do it doen't alway work out but when it does every one ends up happy. POLICIES As we're sure you know restoration work is a specialized process that very few companies even attempt these days. We take this work seriously and are a no nonsense company that is having some issues with policies that need to be brought to everyone's attention. PHONE CALLS AND VISITS 1. All phone calls need to be made between business hours Monday through Friday 8:00 am to 5:00 pm, Saturdays 8:00 am to 12:00 pm, standard Eastern Time. All calls need to be made to the business phone at 585-344-0408. If for some reason you are unable to call between these hours and feel you need to use my cell phone number, please limit these calls to once a week only to check on progress. Use of my personal cell phone has been abused, and any further abuse will be charged to the customer. My cell phone is to be used for emergency situations only after business hours. ESTIMATES 1. If we give you an estimate it is just that "an estimate" which means, according to the American Heritage Dictionary, " 1. The Act of Evaluating or Appraising. 2. A Tentative Evaluatiion or Rough Calculation, as of worth, quantity, or size. 3. A Statement of the Approxiate Cost of Work to be Done, such as a Building Project or Car Repairs. 4. A Judgement Based on one's impressions; an opinion. " Don't assume something is included in an original estimate especially something added later. You are being billed shop rate of $65.00 per hour as actually worked by the clock hour and NOT priced in advance. This has been a huge problem and will not be tolerated anymore. 2. Our shop rate is $65.00 per clock hours actually worked. Here is a brief breakdown to give you an example of how a 40 hour work week can accumulate. 1 Hour w/ 2Techs = $130.00 1 Hour w/ 3Techs = $195.00 1 Day (8 Hrs) 1 Tech = $520.00 1 Day (8 Hrs) 2 Techs = $1040.00 1 Day (8 Hrs) 3 Techs = $1560.00 1 Week (40 Hrs) 1 Tech =$2600.00 1 Week (40 Hrs) 2 Techs = $5200.00 1 Week (40 Hrs) 3 Techs = $7800.00 CHANGES AND ADDITIONS 1. Any changes to a job of additional work will be charged for. Don't be surprised if you ask for it to be done, it will be, but you will be charged. Absolutely no exceptions. Again if you ask us to do something be prepared to pay for it. 2. Pick up and deliveries. This is not free we will pick up cars, ship parts, whatever it takes but you will be charged time, fuel and or shipping costs. 3. Old parts are the sole responsibility of the owner. Do not leave them around or they will get thrown out. SPECIAL PRIVILEDGES 1. No tools or shop equipment will be loaned out. That is final, don't ask to use the shop trailer oreven ascrewdriver. All this has been done in the past and did nothing but benefit the other party and left me with damaged, broken or missing parts and having to deal with these damages out of my own time and pocket. 2. Staying after hours to meet with customers, this has done nothing but come between me and my family. So if this is the case and its not set up by us you will be charged per hour for it. No longer will I spend hours discussing ones car while my son or wife waits for me. 3. All cars must be insured by their owner. If not insured by owner we will not be responsible for vehicle or parts related to vehicle. PAYMENT 1. As you can see above from the labor hour breakdown, monies owed can accumulate very quickly. It is important for both the customer and us to stay on top of the monies at all times or we can not be productive. This is a business that needs its employees and needs the building we work in and cant support those needs with out the funding coming in on time. 2. Payment must be made within 10 days of receiving invoice. Failure to do so will void all offers, discounts and warranties plus completion time promises. 3. Any invoice left unpaid for 15 or more days will have a 10% late charge added. 4. Any invoice left unpaid for 30 or more days is subject to 25% late charge and all discounts void and full labor rated applied. 5. Storage will be charged to anyone with a past due invoice subject to as low as $80.00 per month and up to $25.00 per day. 6. If parts are left on site there will a container charge minimumof$80.00 per month for storage. 7. If you have a negative balance for more then 10 days you will be charged for storage. A minimum amount of $120.00 per month and up to $25.00 per day. 8. Anytime you have a negative balance your car will not be covered under any warranty or insurance. You are on your own all discounts and offers become null in void. 9.Absolutely no work will be done on any car with a negative balance. 10. If customer shows signs of being past due on a regular basis, a deposit will be required. A positive balance of $1,000.00 must be maintained at all times or else all work will stop on vehicle. 11. All jobs require a $5,000.00 minimum deposit. Which by NYS Law sales tax is immediately taken out of that deposit and all other payments. 12. There will be no cash deals everything is taxable and will be taxed in accordance to NYS law. TIME SCHEDULE 1. If a customer chooses to supply parts, we will not be held accountable for time lost waiting for parts. If any vendor back orders parts we can not be held accountable for time deadlines not being held up to. 2. Any lawsuit attempts to sue for incompletion of car with an over due balance will result in an immediate Judgement put on the owner of the vehicle for past due balance and storage fees. These restoration projects can take several months to years to complete. Often times I will come in on the weekends or stay late into the evening after business hours are long over to work on a project without the disturbances. We are not open after 5:00 pm Monday thru Friday after 12:00 on Saturday closed Sundays. If I am here I do not want to be bothered. This is my time. If I am working on someone's car it's my choice and still don't want to be bothered. Pretend I am not here, don't ask, don't knock, don't come in. Please give me this courtesy, it may be your car I am trying to work on to meet your deadline. Acceptance Signature of Customer____________________Signature of Shop Owner___________________________
No, that's not the problem at all. He's gladly paying exactly what they ask. The problem is the shops are cutting their own throat voluntarily then blaming customers for the bleeding. Dunno about you, but when I walk into a shop, I expect to pay shop rate fair and square. It's not an auction to see how high the rate needs to be to get things done. The number posted on the wall is a firm figure for both parties, no negotiation.
Its too bad they didn't get it out in a reasonable time, or keep him informed. I bet they loose his wife as a customer. Having been a line mechanic on a commissioned pay plan, as has been said here before, there are 2 ways to look at this, but since they took it on and since his wife was a customer, they should have done better. One dealership I worked at would just blow a real high estimate at older work, expecting trouble that the repair wouldn't be routine. (routine: 1 hour of work = 1+ hour billing/pay) The estimate would be so high, the customer usually declined, which was the idea, and if he/she went for it, we were covered. Not necessarily my way of doing business, but it was a high volume, high $$$ shop.
Hers how it works at my shop.... collision work is our bread and butter, customers are in rentals, ins. co will be there to feed us everyday, but guys like you are a long shot whaeather you will ever spend any more money at my shop. so Yes I have to cater to the ins. co.'s like it or not. plus i can fix a wreck in a week, have 4-5 grand . i can work on your old car, battle rust ,prior rigged bs, old clips falling apart, twisted off bolts, etc. etc. charge you 2 grand and you sqweel like a pig, say i'm screwing you, tell all the people you run into about what a jerk I am. Like you are doing to this poor shop, chances are you don't rely on this car for your main transp. so the way the shop see's it you can do without for a while, but perhaps the single mom with 3 kids and a worthless no pay x, has to walk or catch rides, because she can't afford a rental, needs her car, so you just got bumped. It might not be right, but I assure you, the shop wants your car out and done as soon as possible,I too fight this problem. and I work on the old stuff after hours and on weekends, my time. which if you work for someone else you would expect to get time and a half or double time for sundays. I on the other hand work for about a 1/3 of what it should be, and still have people bitch. so you know what , man up go get that bad boy and fix it yourself!!! buy some special tools smash your fingers , get cut on rusty bolts that break off and now you have to figure out how to fix that. and when it isn't done in a few days, it will be ok because you are the guy doing it. but you should be fair about the deal and if you don't have it done in the time someone else thinks it should be, then you need to punish yourself, sorry about the rant, just struck a nerve and I get the same thing, but no-one understands the sacrifices that are made to work on other peoples cars. as they are sitting on the couch watching tv or spending time with family, which I don't have the lugzery of doing. but I chose this life, so I don't complain much. EXCEPT when I am out to eat with the wife and some F*&^% r says hey what are you doing you should be working on my car!!! instead of aout goofing off, So you know what you are right, thats when I got to the shop, puss the car out in the street call 'em at midnight tell em im done, its in the street better come get it, before it gets hit or stollen!!!
^Wow man, with that attitude you have no business working on older cars. Even if your dream customer walks in the door tomorrow waving cash, he's fucked and gonna walk away burned. I see the same attitude in a lot of one man machine shops and those guys go bankrupt by the dozen. Hope you can turn it back into something positive in your life. Good luck
Hi Ed, A good policy as stated. In estimating, somewere I have read of an estimate to be within 10% of the final bill. If you're familiar with the work involved, then I would want to inform the customer IF, the job: A. got more complicated, B. was to cost more for any reason. Maybe a little more wiggle room is needed in the type of work we are talking about here. If so, then I'd want to clear it up, and not have to hide behind a clause in an agreement where neither party is satisfied.
well shifty, I've been in business for myself since 92 have had 13 empolyees at on time, have since down sized, pay uncle sam alot less, make alot more for myself, and it is just 2 of us now, run about 20% less in total sales from when I had 13, And I can run circles around most of the employees I have had. my quality is higher, and I have a backlog of work , about 6 waiting and a lot more calling wanting in. most of what i build is in mags and gets good results, my attitude isn't bad just not sugar coating it. I do everything I can to make the customer happy and most are very happy. i do nice work at very fair prices, flawless it aint, but it doesn't take me 2 years. I built my cad in 4 months. when I work it is for keeps, and I get lots done, so time for me to get to work and quit worring about what the rest of the world is doing. and I do have alot of possitive things in my life, family, and hard work .
lots of good replies . thanks guys I called up the shop today and went and picked the car up. Of course they didn't put in the windows so i picked up the glass i had delivered there. Also i wanted the exhaust leaks fixed and a month later when i picked it up today they told me "we weren't able to fix the exhaust your heat riser is cracked and we cannot find another one, we suggest you take it to a muffler shop and they can run the pipes straight back without attaching it to the heat riser" the bill was 650.00 to fix a leaky gas tank and rebuild the carb. I'm not happy.
It's not just a matter of late model vs old car either. I used to work for a Mechanic and his policy was to get all of the oil changes and brake jobs done as first priority. He called them the "bread and butter jobs". ANY big jobs on ANY model car were bottom priority for him because he knew that they can snag you sometimes and really tie up the flow of the quick cash.
I guess the only thing positive that came out of this is my car is back in "my"hands and i can work on it.
Another thing to consider is that dispatching the bread 'n' butter jobs is part of keeping a happy customer base. In a small shop, if the guy started the big jobs first, and got hung up, he could end up at 5 o'clock with a half a dozen unfinished oil changes. What do you tell a customer after you had his/her car all day and couldn't finish an oil or brake job?
well I'll at least tell you from a technician's point of view... I work for a Cadillac/Hummer/Saab dealership. I get 1 hour to cut 1 hour r&r time for the pads for a total of two hours on a brake job. *MOST* of the cars we do are 05 and newer however we know who drives newer devilles (bluehairs), we got in a 91 in yesterday from an old lady who brings it in every three months like clock work. (thats the only reason we let it in , no one else has ever even changed oil on this car) . same job took 3 hours (broken bolts, rusted fasteners and so on) vs the 45 min a new one would take.. and that is just a 91... I'll take gravy alllll day.Its more profitable. Sorry I work for money.. Not fun not satisfaction not any of these "honorable" REASONS. I know i sounds harsh, its called work. I love to work on old rods, theres no money in it. I have bills, I want to have things, I want my own rod, and gravy work allows that.
I just bought a bunch of other peoples parts just to get mine back because of a lame shop owner that did not give a dung. I feel for you.
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