Those two made me laugh out loud.... It's been in the ground? What does that have to do with anything, hell just put dirt in your engine, it is the ground.... And changing viscosity because of superior flow and cold flow is also silly. What about bearing clearances? Man I love the oil debates, so many uneducated opinions... Rock on world, rock the fuck on...
Well what the fuck...give us your insightful knowledge on the subject. You must be an expert. I was trying to keep it light and simple. Yes, when converting A USED ENGINE TO SYNTHETIC OIL YOU NEED TO RAISE VISCOSITY. I didn't do the thousands of hours of research to prove this, I simply read the results. And do some of your own research to see how the base stock of oil breaks down. It doesn't. It burns, it gets dirty, it gets contaminated with gasoline, acids, and water based biproducts of combustion, and will indeed last longer that 3000 miles in most anything except perhaps a dirt bike or Baja racer, maybe some construction equipment. But anyways, wax on with your bad self and tell us for real what your lab came up with. My lab was my 477 BBC that ran 168 passes on the same oil with one filter change. Amsoil 50W race oil, when I took the thing down for general inspection and service the bearings looked a week old if that. Cyl walls were lovely. 2-3% leak down. No, fuck no, I don't know shit...
all right everyone calm down,lets not trash this thread, there is some very good info on here, best thing to do is keep an eye on the oils and watch the levels, then it's use the ones with good levels or use an additive. as far as the synthetic, it's true the particles are smaller,so they may leak some through worn seals, but if you want to run the full synthetic, just replace the leaking ones. the new ones are not going to leak just because it's synthetic. personally if it wasn't for the zinc thing, i would continue to run the syntec blend from castrol, it's cheaper then full synthetic, and it seems to have the best of both worlds. I haven't had any leak problems with the blend. don't forget also,if you have a new engine, you can't break it in on full synthetic, it's just too slippery. you have to run dino oil or break in oil. this same thing would go for something like cam change. parts have to wear together,so they need some friction.
It's a shame but now a good thread with some good info will be ++++ closing ++++ soon. As far as oil is concerned do your research and pick your oil. I wouldnt call this research, more a pissin contest.
well theres some good info on here as far as oils with the additives still, and oils that have worked well. this is how i found out about the brad penn oil,which is really the old kendall oil. maby the thread could just be cleaned up if it gets too bad.
Changing oil does not change the bearing clearances. The viscosity of a petroleum based oil and a synthetic is the same. There is not a difference in synthetic viscosity and petroleum based viscosities. How much more basic can you get. Having rebuilt a bunch of engines if it was reasonably taken care of there usually isn't enough of a change in bearing clearances to warrant a change in oil viscosity. Easy enough to understand.
Sorry but I am going to have to disagree with your statement about viscosity. I have talked to many of the major suppliers of Synthetics oils about this subject and they all say that if you motor calls for 10w30 for instance, that is what you should run, regardless of whether it is Syn or Petro based. The reason given is viscosity index is the same for all oils and the recommendations have more to do with bearing clearances than anything else and these recommendations come from the engine designers. The only time they suggested raising the viscosity over the original recommendation was a very high mileage engine that would have worn bearing tolerances. So I'm not sure what results you have read but this info came straight from numerous manufacturers. As for your BBC, I don't see the relevance of 42 miles of racing plus a probably fairly equal amount of pit lane driving for a total running time of less than 2 hours comapred to the use in older design, street driven hot rod motors that this thread was asking about. Apples & Oranges.
is it true that engines get better compression with convetional than synthetics? i heard that, but i want to know if it's a myth or fact.
Man-o-man... lots of opinions, but some good facts from some. Synthetic, for the following reasons: 1. Better heat dissipation 2. Better adhesion/cling to metal, allowing for better heat transfer (the reason an engine will run cooler w/ synth) 3. Less prone to breakdown (yes, like the old Mobil 1 commercials say) 4. SEPERATES from hydrocarbons (unburnt fuel) which keeps the oil from getting diluted by the fuel. Mineral oil MIXES w/ fuel, and is contaminated and thinned-out. If synthetic seperates from hyrdocarbons, then the PCV will carry those fumes to the intake for burning. This SOLD me on synthetics when I found this out during engine durability testing as an employee of a major auto manufacturer! The story on LEAKAGE (from a manufacturer's perspective): gasket manufacturers (suppliers) would not recommend/allow the use of synthetic oil, until they were confident that their products would hold up... since they were responsible for warranty failures! Many auto manufacturers have made the switch, so they can extend the service intervals, and thus reduce the "cost of maintenance". All marketing, in those cases.
Take a minute and read this guys stuff. Its very interesting. http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/html/oils.html I am partial to Red Line Oil products, because they help make my racecar go fast www.donhudsonracing.com
While on this subject, very cool Uk Castrol commercial journey through an engine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMoy8XXp7TI&feature=related and the castrol heritage ad, very cool video, some great machines in there http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nDcPsNiWlM&feature=related
I use it personally, after a 5000 mile break-in on a new engine. I go the factory distance between changes if I run syn, otherwise 2-3 K on regular oil. So far no problems, but then again I've had old engines at 180K that had regular 2k changes with no problems. Back in the day tried graphite, amazingly I saw idle speed go up, but then all the horror stories started pouring in and I quit real quick. The only old engine I ever switched it to was a 160K chebbie that was slow cranking in our Chicago winters. Did the job, cold cranking speed went up significantly, I was waiting for the warm weather leaks to start, as most people I saw switch over at high mileage experienced leaking. Surprisingly, this engine did not, but that is unusual from what I hear and see.
if you read the PDF at the link above, they talk about that, the first generation synthetics caused seal shrinkage, but that problem has been engineered out now. heres the link again,very interesting tecnical read http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/html/oils.html
Here is a really good site that explains perhaps a little more than you want to Know about motor Oil. http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief11%20-%20Internal%20Combustion%20Engine%20Lubrication.pdf
I have had a positive experience with Flat 30Wt Amsoil in the past in my old truck and found it was superior to petro oil. It worked great. Higher oil pressure even at hot temps. I understand that it will not freeze. The truck ran great but I lost contact with my supplier. Nowadays, you can mostly find synthetic blends at the local auto supply house. I use the synthetic blend in my daily driver, but flat petro oil - 30 or 40 in my hotrods. Hope this info helps.
Good point. Ever have one of those motors that just turns new oil black in a couple days? Use synthetic for 15k, change every 3k, use a premium filter. Don't be suprised when the oil starts staying clean for a couple thousand miles. Least that's been my experience with switching old engines over. It really is some miraculous shit. With a corresponding price tag.
???? Why would I raise the the viscosity on a synthetic verses a mineral based oil? A 10w30 is a 10w30 no mater if it's a syn or a mineral, in fact a 10w30 syn will have a thicker oil film under pressure than a 10w30 mineral due to the fact that it is more stable under pressure because of it's more uniform molecular structure and because it has no contaminants like parafins and it doesn't need flow modifiers like mineral oils do. In fact some synthetics oils are rated as multi viscosity oils even tho they don't contain any vicosity modifiers at all. They are rated a multi viscosity due to the fact that they flow like a thinner oil but maintain a thicker oil film. A good straight 30 syn will flow like a 10 weight mineral oil but yield a thicker oil film under pressure than a 30weight mineral oil. So a high quality straight 30 syn will rate as a 10w30. For a mineral oil to rate as a 10w30, you start with a thin 10 weight oil and add viscosity modifiers to keep it from thinning more than a 30 weight would when it is hot. Than is the big benefit of synthetics, you get higher flowrates but better protection than with a mineral. So why would I need a heavier weight synthetic oil compared to a mineral based oil?
I'm going with Highlander here, you can raise the visc, because the synth oil has more uniform particulates in it than dino does. This lets you run the same bearing clearances & achieve better oiling performance. I have done this since synthetics came out & I always get 200-250K out of my trucks before I sell them, usually to a buddy or relative, who keeps driving them for another 50-80K. H3O, the synths don't burn like dinos do, so the losses to combustion are reduced. Everybody should be aware that the EPA is dropping the levels of zinc & phosphorus in diesel oils due to their effects on the cat converters in cars & trucks. There are few oils left with enough zinc to avoid the high cost of the zddp additive. I've been using the Amsoil PCO, which is a semi-synth blend. It's cheaper then full synth & works better than the old dino oils did. Here's a link to a copy of Amsoil's report on the subject- http://www.norfolkn.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=83&sid=4b9cf6ae3b62f860029011ff2372e5f9
one of those links i just read,they said not to fill your filter before you put it on,I don't believe that one, no quality oil manufacturer is going to sell you dirty oil out of the bottle,they do have a reputation, if you are that worried about it, use a paint strainer like you fill your paint gun with, the advantage of having the filter full of oil, vs. parts scraping together while it fills, far outweighs any chance of dirt in a new bottle of oil.
'one of those links i just read,they said not to fill your filter before you put it on,I don't believe that one, no quality oil manufacturer is going to sell you dirty oil out of the bottle,they do have a' i always fill the filter as to aVoid dry starting a motor. on te other hand id asume that the oil they are selling you is not dirty, but there more than likely could be dirt or contaminants in the actual storage container that you buy the oil in, regardless probly not enough to affect anything but like said before a strainer wont hurt anything
this is what i have found,,i dont claim to be a chemist,,,like every one else searching for the quick fix,,,,trying to read between the lines,of what every one thinks they know,,, a local speed shop tried to sell me on valvoline VR1 OFF ROAD,,i wanted to know what the difference was between VR1 & VR1 OFF ROAD,, i called valvoline,,they told me that VR1 has 1200-1300 ppm zddp (zinc) but the VR1 OFF ROAD was formulated for racing,,,and will break down after 500 miles,,they told me VR1 is what i need i have 2 cars one with a soldi lifer cam,one with a standart flat tappet hyd,at that time i was breaking in new lifters in the flat tappet hyd motor,,worked fine,,, you can buy the VR1 mail order for almost 5 bucks a QT,plus shiping,,auto zone sells it on the shelf for 3.98 a QT,, but they only carry too different viscosites,,i buy 30w and 10w40 VR1 from a local mom and pop suto store,they sel me a case at the cost of 4.00 a QT,, no shipping,, normal valvoline is 800 ppm ZDDP (zinc) enough for a already broken in flat tappet hyd cam,,
I mention that motor for a couple reasons. At 7800 in the traps pulling 3545# in high gear, I'd expect that the mechanical load is as high as a stock rotating assy could possibly see. I can also mention that those parts (crank, block, rods) are still in another car still workin hard. The leak down test revealed 3% on 6 and 8, the others at 2%, and from what we all know that's the best indication of ring seal vs a simple compression test. There was eventually just under 400 rounds on that motor and I believe the oil had a bit to do with how well things held up, but certainly not the whole reason. The viscosity statement relates to a used engine, and I thought we'd assume used meant a decent amount of use/mileage/age not a low mile late model, since the board topic is about old stuff. So if I were to switch a used Cadillac 390 to a synthetic, a good true brand of synthetic, by some logic I should still run 10W40. I wouldn't, I'd step it up. I'll stand by my breakdown statements as well, and appreciate your delivery of a counterpoint vs some of the above. I think the only subject more fun and controversial than oil is spark plugs
I use Rotella D or Delo 15-40 in all my engines. I have 6 Quarts of Synthetic sitting up stairs, but its like that fancy manifold on my wall. Waiting for the right car to put it in.
I'm with you guys, ALWAYS fill the oil filter! Highlander, you're wrong, do a post on today's shitty "high-perf" Air Filters & watch the fun!
The founder/owner (now deceased) of Torco Motor Oil once told me a story about how Nascar teams, sponsored by large oil companies, used to pour Torco synthetic oil out of barrels into empty quart bottles of sponsor's brandname stuff, to display and use in the pits. He explained that even a fractional increase in horsepower could be the difference in a 500 mile race, and all teams were looking for any possible edge. He also explained to me that oil doesn't "wear-out", it's the additives that do, and it's ALL about the additives. He personally used synthetics exclusively in his own rides.
I can't, I never used em! And for the record, the filter is the last thing to get oil but I think filling it is always a safe practice, 'cept them fucks that mount sideways. Had a guy in the shop fill the big filters on a Ferrari V-12 once. I just stood there smiling asking him "...whadaya gonna do now?" They were inverted
I'm sure that the Syn oil helped your BBC stay together and was paramount to your results, it just doesn't have any real relevance to running an old motor in a street car. If you read my post about my off road truck, you will see I'm a firm believer and my only useful point about that truck was Syn's ability to protect under extreme heat conditions. As for the viscosity change, i will submit that if you feel that an old Caddy would benefit from stepping up a grade with a change to Syn it would also benefit from stepping up with Petro based as well. Another discussion that is hilarious to read is one on oil filters.
on my every day car syn, only cause it they claim change every 10k and im lazy when it comes to oil changes..........doesent seem to break down as quick
The Jalopy Journal
