HOW TO JUDGE A WELD, One thousand words can tell you more than one picture.

You make an excellent point. It's difficult to overcome the paradox. I'm dismayed that by the time you had progressed to that point that you still hadn't digested all of the elements of a good weld (yet) and were distracted by prior assumptions. I see this as a failure of the instructor to have properly prepared you with the facts up to that point in your training.

That being said, Lolife, it's reassuring to me that you now realize this. It's apparent that you eventually came to the proper state of mind, maybe on your own.

Good for you! Some people never reach that level.

 

Gentlemen, I'm going to be away from my computer for a couple of days and I didn't want to miss the chance to say "Merry Christmas;" I'm praying God's best for all of us in the coming year.
Blessings,
PK

 

It's Christmas eve. Ease up on the pedal for a couple of days and be safe.
May all have a;

Merry Christmas!

 

I have been a little confused about this at times. Because i learned early on about the importance of having a weld burn all the way through. When I later was being instructed
in TIG welding by a well known guy, I was always told I used too much heat. His practice was pretty much to drip drop welding rod on the surface to make a beautiful looking bead.
I tried to argue the fact that its still a crack buried underneat that weld, but was told I was wrong. Beeing a stubborn ass, I still Tig weld too hot by those standards,
but at least my stuff holds up too actual use. Can you "kill" steel by excessive use of heat
when welding? How about Stainless steel?
-TT

 

Good input. From your own AC frustration, any advice for those already stuck with AC stick machines (other than trade it for DC)? Thanks.

 

I made the mistake of buying one of those little wire-feed welding machines at Home Depot....what junk. Part of the problem was poor voltage in my garage. I would need to run a dedicated 220v from box before ever considering another welding machine. I gave the darn thing away.

 

29Nash, you are an experienced welder, but your real talent is storytelling. I could taste that icy cold Lager.
Merry Christmas, SIr.

 

Remember this; our experience can be best defined by making a list of all of our failures/mistakes.

Thanks for the compliment, but please don't call me 'sir'. That might imply I'm a gentleman! Before I came back to the real world, I was a zebra striper, not an officer!

Merry Christmas! Happy Chugging!

 

Shit Fire!, to save matches. I was just checking in to make Christmas greetings, and loe and behold, another good question.......

Only a void kills the weld. Burn-through creates little holes with contaminates that can't be removed. Good fusion between the fill and the parent is a good weld, generally speaking. Tempered steel, like 4130 re-gains it's temper as it cools, precipitation, taking into account that there is a grain boundry of annealed, gotta have compromises when dealing with nature!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Goober
Good input. From your own AC frustration, any advice for those already stuck with AC stick machines (other than trade it for DC)? Thanks.

I interpret what lucky667 said as his impressions gained from YEARS of experience, and his 'druthers.

He's not disuading any form of the art. Art, as in, he's been there, done that, and is qualified to have an opinion. Nobody should throw away a properly functioning machine. If you're going to buy a new stick welder, get a DC.

 

'Twas the night before Christmas & out on the ranch​

The pond was froze over & so was the branch. ​

The snow was piled up belly-deep to a mule. ​

The kids were all home on vacation from school, ​

And happier young folks you never did see- ​

Just all sprawled around a-watchin' TV. ​

Then suddenly, some time around 8 o'clock, ​

There came a surprise that gave them a shock! ​

The power went off, the TV went dead! ​

When Grandpa came in from out in the shed ​

With an armload of wood, the house was all dark. ​

"Just what I expected," they heard him remark. ​

"Them power line wires must be down from the snow. ​

Seems sorter like times on the ranch long ago." ​

"I'll hunt up some candles," said Mom. "With their light, ​

And the fireplace, I reckon we'll make out all right." ​

The teen-agers all seemed enveloped in gloom. ​

Then Grandpa came back from a trip to his room, ​

Uncased his old fiddle & started to play ​

That old Christmas song about bells on a sleigh. ​

Mom started to sing, & 1st thing they knew ​

Both Pop & the kids were all singing it, too. ​

They sang Christmas carols, they sang "Holy Night," ​

Their eyes all a-shine in the ruddy firelight. ​

They played some charades Mom recalled from her youth, ​

And Pop read a passage from God's Book of Truth. ​

They stayed up till midnight-and, would you believe, ​

The youngsters agreed 'twas a fine Christmas Eve. ​

Grandpa rose early, some time before dawn; ​

And when the kids wakened, the power was on. ​

"The power company sure got the line repaired quick," ​

Said Grandpa - & no one suspected his trick. ​

Last night, for the sake of some old-fashioned fun, ​

He had pulled the main switch - the old Son-of-a-Gun! ​

​

-anonymous​

 

How about a tech thread w/pics that show what a good weld looks like and what a bad weld looks like, and also explain what makes them good or bad. I've been wanting to take a adult education course on welding at the local tech school, but I keep getting stuck on second shift all the time. Thanks, later shawn

 

GOOBER post #95. I learned the hard way about A/C machines. First,... If you can weld with it,... Of course, Keep it & use it! But if you don't have a welder and are buying one,.. ONLY buy a D/C machine. Like the song says "don't drink the water in Mexico" & "don't ask me how I know!" The explanation & story will be too long,....
In 1975 I finally got the money together and bought a Little Miller 225 A/C machine, the supply shop recommended 6013 rods. So I bought 3 box's! 50 lbs of 3/32", 50 lbs of 1/8", and 50 lbs of 3/16". UGH! I tried and tried, finally my welds were strong enough for a BBQ pit, embarrasing. Well good enough with a lot of grinding so they didn't look bubble gum. I tried to weld with that "thing" for years. 6011 rods helped a lot.
Fate,... a buddy was selling some tools. I bought a drill press and he threw in a nearly new Lincoln A/C--D/C machine cheap! I almost sold it, my Miller machine looked so much better. Luckily I tried the Lincoln! Big surprise! I was allready using the 6011 rods. I could weld up-side down easily! Good looking even welds, no bubble gum! GOOBER to answer your question, what to do with the A/C machine? Another bad story! I "gave" my A/C machine to my brother. He still can't weld with it. It frustrated him so badly, he bought a MIG welder. There's a saying "free is sometimes too much". I'm not recommending any brand, Just D/C!
I hope I didn't hijack this thread. But,...I've learned so much about building cars on the H.A.M.B. in the last few weeks, I want to help too. This is just my experience. I'm not an expert. Telling everyone about my mistakes may help prevent them from making the same mistakes. I found out about D/C welders completely by accident. This advice may be the difference between someone building the car of their dreams OR never building it! Since I've been studying the builds on HAMB, I've learned so much. Like how to get the "Front Axle-FRAME-Rear Axle" in perfect alignment with each other! It was so simple, measure, measure, and use STRING ! Now when I build a Hot Rod I will build it better than I ever thought possible AND it will be easier and I will have a much safer car. Feel free to send me a pm. If I don't know, I'll tell you so. I hope this helps, Lucky667

 

Wow! I am still finding all the cool threads in here due to noob status, but I am glad I found this one. Hate to call him gramps, but that would be the age group. THANK YOU GRAMPS!!! Although welding has taken some modern advances in his time (stick and gas to MIG and TIG), we all still need to give credit where it is due. This man is spot on. There are welds for strength and welds for beauty and welds for both. The latter is what we all try for but need to realize what we are trying to accomplish, making this piece of metal stick to that one without failure. There have been some welds that were so ugly on trailers that I have worked on, for instance, but I had a devil of a time trying to separate the 2 pieces of metal via cut off wheel, plasma, saws all, hammer, bigger hammer, etc. Beauty is 2nd to function. Thanks again!

 

I started welding in the 6th grade as my step dad said I need some shelves and gave me some metal to weld to make brackets. Typical triangulated brackets made with 1" flat bar 1/8" thick. Well he sort of showed me and so I was on my way. After I was done, he hit one of the brackets against the steel table and it fell apart. Then he showed me about penetration( no not sexual)!!. Well I learned at a young age and when the 8th grade offered welding, I signed up. I got A's in all skills of welding and took it in the 9th grade, and 10th grade with the same marks. I then had to transfer to another school that was more industrial and had over 2000 students. Both academic and industrial. I signed up for welding and again layed killer beads with good penetration but I hated arc welding. Still got A's but had to do the assignments a couple more time to get the mark. I loved gas welding. I remember welding all those test welds out of that 1/8" material. The class would fill a huge dumpster 3 times a year. Well since I was ahead of the class in my assignments , my teacher asked me to climb in the dumpster that was 3/4 full to find a piece of steel he tossed out that he shouildnt have. I told him "I signed up top be a welder , not a garbage man". He kicked me out of the class.
I talked to the counseller and he got me back in. But when I got my report card, the Teacher gave me a C. I showed him that all my assignments got As and I had more done than anyone. He then said it was my absenses. I grabbed the book and I'd missed 4 days all year!!! Then he said it was my attitude. I told him to Fu@$# off as he was a prick for kicking me out and for holding a grudge. So I took their industrial drafting and construction program and ever since I have made my living in Construction.
I can still make nice looking beads with great penetration. Some people just cant seem to get it.
My brother is one of the most mechanical people I know but when he welded up a car rotissery, It looked like a bunch of Caterpillers laying on the metal. He has welded quite a bit but just doesnt seem to get it? So far he hasn't had any structural stuff break but Im not standing under that rotissary. I remember welding my quarter panel on my car and people asking if I would do theirs. I had never welded anything so thin with a mig but it worked great. My brother and I welded up his 1989 Blazer full of rust patches and he said that his mig sucked so we traded. He loved mine but I thought his was WAYYYYYYYY better. His welds still didnt look good. LOL!
I love welding and grinding etc but when I was 21 I got a rare lung disease that limits me to the smoke and dust I breath. I now wear a resporator. Glad I didnt do the welding thing full time as the fumes can get pretty nasty.

 

Make sure the rod you are using is made for a/c. If it ends in a 0 or a 5(like 6010) it's not. 6011 and 7018 run awesome on a/c. And you won't get arc blow at the end of a weld.

I read the first post in this thread a few days ago. I'm not going to argue with the majority of it, but I want to make one point. The idea of a "gorilla weld", ugly but strong, has always bugged me. A decent weld may not be the prettiest and a pretty weld may not be the strongest, but an ugly weld will never be as strong as it could be. There is a reason that when certifying you need to pass a visual test before they'll even consider a destructive, x-ray, or ultrasound test. The characteristics that make a weld ugly(bumps, slag, inclusions, undercut, ect.) all make the weld weaker. A smooth and even weld, all other things equal, is stronger than an ugly weld.


-Josh

 

Yes. you are correct. But that would be assuming it has strength. I think you're reading something into the thread that I haven't seen from any of the posts. As stated before, the premise of the thread is simple. Visual inspection of a weld can't determine strength.

You are incorrect, by implying that somehow anybody here is defending crappy welds.

As far as certification goes the individual selects his sample and submits it for certification. He knows the anatomoy of the weld he selects because he did it. It's rare indeed that one would submit a sample knowing it was a failure. After certified it is incumbent on that person, through his integrity, to perform a weld to the standards required. It's a trust. Beyond that the only way anybody else can judge his work is by destructive, or non-destructive testing.

 

My only intent was to add some clarity. I don't think anyone was necessarily defending shit welds, but I could see someone walking away with the wrong impression. Perhaps I'm wrong, just my .02 cents

There are plenty of methods of certifying, but it sounds like what I've gone through was much more stringent than your description. There was no "choosing" samples. You start with a plate or pipe and stamp it with your identification. Every single pass is visually inspected and can be kicked out at anytime for failing said visual or breaking the test guidlines. That means that ugly welds generally do not pass, because what makes them ugly makes them weaker. There are very strict measurables for this, from the weld profile to any undercut and irregularities in the bead . Each cert builds on the last one, and they are routinely updated. At any point between certs if there is any reason to suspect you are doing subpar work you will be called back to attempt to re-certify.

As far as tig welding, the CWI I normally deal with said he has NEVER seen a tig weld that passed the visual test fail a destructive test. Obviously in a setting like a garage it's a little trickier, as you can't always see the joint prep, you don't know what filler was used, and sometimes don't know the thickness of the material. Stick welding is a different beast, as it is much easier to hide inclusions or weld over slag. Tig is just so clean and precise.


-Josh

 

Thanks for the good input Lucky 667 and jdustu. Believe I should be able to improve.

 

29Nash, forget the welding, you are a great writer.

 

I can apperciate your expertise. As a certified welder, that goes without saying. Thank you for that. If all welders were certified, there would be little to discuss. I've never seen a certified welder do a weld I wouldn't accept, because as I've stated before you can't tell the strength by looking and I would have no call to distrust.

I have also dealt with welders where their job didn't require certification. That fact, in no way, reflects on their skill. There is a paralell. Just as you can't judge the strength of a weld by what's on the surface, you can't judge the skills of a welder by a mere lack of certification. It's a piece of paper required by some entities, brought to bear more for assigning accountability than to measure skill. It's 99 percent accountability.

Again, repeating myself, it is unlikely that one submitting a sample for certification would select a questionable weld, even a less aesthetic one. Along those lines, I don't think your CWI was proporting that TIG (as far as passing a destructive bend test goes), is superior in strength to stick, mig, oxy/acetylene, or even flux-core wire-feed. But if he was, I question HIS judgement. Having experienced NDT levels of certification (ASNT), not doing the welding but testing, I am aware of how self-serving some bureaucracies are.

Facts are, I have seen hot rod shock mounts and motor mounts done with TIG where the weld was picture perfect, but after they broke off one could see that the fill was paper thin. Also; Re: the ancedotal description of my experience where the guy thought his cracking welds were due to "bad rod", up front in the thread somewhere.

 

thanks......yep....
He, he, he, writing is fun.
Welding? It can be, (fun), but is mostly work. eek!
As I said before, my eyesight plays tricks on the puddle, gets fuzzy and squirrly sometimes. You can attribute my sentence structure to Mrs. Edwards.(rip), my humor to my Uncle(s) Frank(rip) and Elmer(rip), my tenacity to my Uncle Dee(an oxy/acet welder who had no idea that other methods were coming in the future!, rip), and my arrogance to my dad. (rip). Dee had an acetylene generator that produced gas by pouring in water on carbide. It wouldn't surprise me if it was revealed that he had also produced his own oxygen too!

.............and now that this thread has made full circle, my next story will probably be an ancedotal account of some fun (OT) I had in the past, coinciding with slurping of a tall cold glass of suds.

I'm adding a picture of uncle Dee. You can tell by looking that he's a welder, eh? Sometimes when I'm welding on my hot rod I sense him looking over my shoulder.....

 

I definitely respect your experience, I've got much,much less. There is so much to learn about the art of welding that one can never know it all. I've been blessed to study under and learn from guys with 20-55 years of welding experience, and it seems that the more experience they have the more willing they are to admit that they don't know it all

To repeat myself, you can't CHOOSE your sample when you certify. At least to the amse/aws rules. The plain piece of steel or pipe or whatever is stamped before any weld is on it. It isn't a matter of doing 30 welds and choosing the best one. Would every weld that a certified welder lays down after obtaining a cert pass a test? Definitely not. But the process of going through certifying is an invaluable learning tool. I'm sure there are a lot of excellent welders that have never taken a test, but I bet that most of them could learn something going through the process.

The CWI wasn't stating anything other than what I said. In the certifying process he had never seen a tig weld that passed visual fail a destructive test. With mig/flux it's easier to get a cold start, with stick it's easier to hide slag. There was no hidden agenda, he's good guy and an extremely picky inspector

As far as the shock mounts, if the fill was paper thin it wouldn't have passed visual. I know someone had commented in another thread that many of these amazing tig welds your "hot rod heroes" lay down are pretty but aren't the right size. That's absolutely correct, and it's something I've done wrong before. If you are welding two pieces of 3/32" steel together in a fillet, the legs of the weld better be 3/32" each and it should have a nice flat middle(not too convex or concave). A "pretty" 1/8" or 1/4" legged weld isn't correct.


I agree that you can't look at a weld on the internet and say how strong it is. I definitely agree that a lot of guys that aren't really qualified make a lot of b.s. comments on pictures of welds. But I don't agree that beauty and how a weld looks has nothing to do with strength. As I said before, all other things equal, a pretty bead is stronger than an ugly bead.

 

That sounds like more work that reading a thousand words.


Seriously, one of the best threads in a while.


Question.
For those of us who are not certified but "think" that we can weld, what should we do to insure that our welds are strong? Try to break them in a vise? Cut them in half with a band saw? Just looking to affirm the quality of my own welds.

 

Both bend and saw. If you don't have a shear, go to metal supply shop and have cut, or get 2" flat strap in lengths at hardware store, cut to 4" lengths.

Butt weld 2"x4" plate together, making a 4x4 square. Work with thin plate to start, work up to heavy. Check back side for penetration.

For bend test, Clamp in vise, bend it over with a hammer. Bend it back the other way. The bend should happen in the metal next to the weld. Fill shouldn't pull away from parent.

To check for voide, etc, cut down the middle of the weld.

 

If you are doing a fillet weld you can cut it with a bandsaw, polish it up, and look at the welded area. The penetration should extend beyond where the two base pieces meet. It doesn't need to be by a lot, but you shouldn't see a little gap where the pieces meet. The thickness of the metal determines the size of the weld. You can also break it by hitting it with a hammer on the opposite side of the weld. The piece will break off, and you want to make sure it pulls away from the base metal. If you see a nice clean tow line you don't have good penetration.

At this point you're putting words into my mouth, misunderstanding and misinterpreting most of what I'm saying. Perhaps it's my fault and I need to work on my communication skills, but I'm just gonna walk away. I'll stand by everything I said, and you can obviously keep your views as well. If anyone has any questions feel free to p.m. me.

 

If you want to run 7018, look for AC7018 rod. It runs a lot smoother with less spatter and arc blow than conventional 7018, at least on my old AC machine. That's about all I use on heavy stuff anymore.

 

No need for you to go away. I am optimistic.
Your communication skills are excellent. Your welding skills aren't doubted either. You can be proud of both accomplishments.

However; I want everybody else reading the entire thread to read and heed; They shouldn’t fold up this thread and go away with anything but positive clues. I hope they go away with some information that might help them understand that they will always be innundated with good ‘look’ is primary over quality/strength.

They will also be confronted from time to time with somebody that can’t weld for shit, but thinks he can. Both ends of the spectrum must be recognized.

Of course, judstu, you wouldn’t try to pass off a bad weld to anybody. But that’s you, and don’t mean that others won’t. In a test situation, where the parameters are fixed, (assuming a lot of stuff ) including the fact that the applicant is presumed to be aiming for the best possible result, that there is a comfort zone. Odds on, the applicant will practice into the night to prepare himself for the certification test scheduled for the next day. Your CWI has goals to meet. Also, he needs to reassure you, pre-test, and congratulate you post-test. I don’t know if you ever failed a test, but I do know at the time it wasn’t all cheers and small talk.

Let me try one more time with the issues I have with your statements. This time I will be blunt.
Your assertion , what you said regarding your CWI;
“In the certifying process he had never seen a tig weld that passed visual fail a destructive test.”. is misguided, and misleading. I’m here to tell you that it sounds unreasonable to me. I could be wrong, but it sounds like he‘s preaching to the choir, that “good looking” is primary with him. Or maybe it’s something else. I’m just guessing, trying to understand what he meant.

It can’t be so, because if it was, there would be no rationale to do destructive on TIG. The inspector’s handbook would read, “if it passes visual, it’s good to go!

Your other assertion that ;
“all other things equal, a pretty bead is stronger than an ugly bead.”, is lame-brained, and takes the discussion full circle, in an attempt to snow people that are trying to determine if a weld is good.


Your qualified statement,
“all other things equal” brings on the distraction from my premise that ’function before look’ is like religion to me. Other well-meaning people, friends of mine, disagree with that. “Look” is their religion. A strong quality weld is secondary in their mind and if it can be done without fucking up the ‘bling‘. Weld it, do it, and if it looks bad, grind it smooth.

Others like the lines of a beautiful weld, but strength is still secondary.

Of couse! A weld can be made both beautiful and strong, but that ain’t the facts of life.

One very close friend of mine, owns the car(a show car) where one of the shock mounts that I have seen fail. It didn’t fail because it was TIG. It failed because penetration was virtually non-existent. He lives with his decision to have a bitchin’ weld on a shock absorber bracket. Coincidentally, it was the same guy that welded it that had TIG welds cracking and blamed it on the ‘rod’.

Anyhow, my friend had that mount that broke off re’welded. BUT, the other side is still like the first one. We can only guess if the penetration on it is sufficient. Only ultrasound, or HIT IT WITH A BFH! would tell………..

He is willing to accept that if it breaks coming off the trailer at a show and then, that will be the time to deal with it. Of course it could have been done properly and still look good! But the one that broke wasn’t. The jury is still out on the other side.

I applaud him for his beautiful trailer queen, I stand around drinking his beer and talk with him about the car while he crawls around in the dirt to polish the elusive crud off some unseen spot on the underside. The upside is, he is learning…………….

TIG is a wonderful invention. There are things done with TIG that simply can’t be done as well as with other welding disciplines, versatile, no slag to chip, etc. Quick on light work. Excellent on aluminum.

But, name a hundred instances where TIG is the choice, and I’ll name you a hundred where Stick, MIG, or even Flux-core wire feed, are the choice.

But after the slag is chipped on a stick weld like old Burl in Tucson used to do, I would have him do my show car work, with a stick welder. I’ll go out on a limb. Burl could cut out, weld up, and mount a complete trailer hitch whist an expert on a TIG was running a bead around a gas tank. Of course he would use oxy/acetylene on the gas tank, probably with hay-wire or coat hangar as fill!

Different need, different criteria, different disciplines. The gas tank don’t need ¼ inch penetration, the trailer hitch don’t need leak proof bead.

 

You are too optimistic, we are not on the same page. Rather than continue this rehash, I will just say "have a nice day"

 

I went to your website and I'm impressed. Big time.

Thank you for your contribution to the discussion. It's my guess that one would have to get up (very) early in the morning to get ahead of you.

Good day to you, I'm sure.

 

My guess is that if we were talking in the shop we'd be able to understand each other more clearly, and we'd agree more often than not.

Thanks for checking out the site