Forget about high winding racing cams. I don't want to make gobs of HP. I may be seeking the impossible. All I want is a mild cam that won't completely kill the gas mileage but still sound good in the parking lot. We all love the thumper cams that makes everybody turn to see what is coming but I want to drive this thing. The good news is that it will be a stick shift...the bad news is that it will be an O.D. trans...real world cruising at about 2000 RPMs. It will be a 352 Ford FE Edelbrock 390 performer intake with Edelbrock carb and a Mallory Unilite ignition. 40 years ago I had an Isky hyd. cam in a 383 Chrysler. It had 310 duration with a nice lump to it. Even with an automatic it was very streetable. If I remember right I retarded it 3* with an offset bushing. Back then they told me the long duration gave it the cool sounds. At 35 cents a gallon MPGs were never a concern. It seems now a days they use different cam specs. I'm asking here instead of at a cam company because I think some of you might understand what I want. A cam company probably can be a big help if I were racing, but I'm not. I'm sure they will have a recommendation but will they really understand what I'm asking for? There will have to be a compromise but where? Do I look at duration? Lift? the 50* spec? How far can I go down the Summits cam list before the MPGs go completely over the cliff? At what numbers does a cam start to get lumpy? Is there a compromise cam spec number that I should be looking for? I'm betting that I'm not the only one that wants to sneak up on a hot cam without getting carried away. I'm a certified asshole that's proven but sounds are more important than gobs of high RPM HP that I won't ever use. Where does that compromise fall in the cam numbers?
Tommy, As far as duration at .050", stay in the 210 to 225 degree neighborhood on the intake side. I'm not sure how much lift is correct on an FE. I'd guess in the .460 to .480 neighborhood would be close. Last number to look at, overlap degrees. For what it's worth, computer spec cams and truck torque cams usually have a overlap degree number somewhere in the 112 to 116 area to make vacuum. My .02 worth.
Thanks for the input. Nobody else wants to make my eyes glaze over with numbers? I guess I'm being silly but there is something about a cheap bodied old car with a healthy sounding engine that just gets the old ticker pumping. I'm just trying to find a happy medium. A plain Jane 2dr sedan needs a healthy sounding cam to attract a little attention.
well in my 10.7:1 comp olds 461 i've got a cam that specs at 274/282 duration, .499 lift both sides and 108 separation. i think the .050 is around 228/236. it has a nice noticeable idle and i get almost 14mpg around town and 18 on the freeway with a 2200rpm cruise.
The most important thing to remember is that gas mileage suffers whenever your motor isn't operating efficiently. You can stay relatively conservative on duration for streetability, but for the "sound" you want- it's lobe separation that will determine alot. The newer Camaros/Mustangs use a wide lobe separation to run a pretty fair amount of lift/duration, while retaining a broad powerband, smooth idle, and good vacuum. However, they do NOT have an aggressive sounding idle. A tight lobe separation angle may give you the sound you want, even in a midrange cam. But that choppy idle means one thing- valve overlap. You will have less low end drivability, and a higher torque peak --and you will need a fair amount of compression for your motor to be able use this camshaft efficiently. Find a strong midrange cam (around 220-225 degrees of duration at .050" or greater lift), with a narrow (110 degree) lobe separation angle- consult the manufacturer about what static compression ratio that they specify for the cam. A perfect recipe for a sluggish, gas guzzling motor with a narrow powerband too high in RPM is that of a big cam (lotsa valve overlap from big duration #'s and a narrow LCA), with low compression. However- you can run a cam that has enough duration to make power up to about 6000 rpm- with the right amount of compression and gearing, and still end up with decent mileage numbers---because the motor is operating efficiently, and being used within its most efficient operating range (mid-range torque)
A liitle more tidbit. skajaquada is on the right track too. Compression will give some thump, and with a light car/stick combo, you can put more in. Comp Cams High Energy series have a 110 overlap for the most part, smaller overlap, more thump also, but raises the rpm range. Grab up a Comp catalog. You can get them to grind a cam based on their standard lobe profiles with the overlap you want.
Post up some more details for us. Which vehicle is this? What's the rear axle gearing? Is the 352 rebuilt, or is it a bolt-on type of deal? What's the compression...and is that actual measured static compression, or, what the piston makers said, or a SWAG? What pistons does it have? What are the head castings? Did it originally have a hyd. cam, or a solid? What kind of rocker arms does it have? Headers or manifolds? Last thing: you're pretty clear about what you want, and that's good...but a little more is needed. How much do you want to spend on the valvetrain, & how much work are you willing to do? For example, are you willing to buy good springs, & can/will you set them up correctly? Are you willing to, say, have the guides cut down for retainer clearance, or buy longer valves if needed? Or, is it a requirement to work with the stock stuff because of cost? I ALWAYS suggest replacing stock springs if they have any hours at all, even if the new cam is a OE replacement. Are you willing to check things like piston-to-valve clearance, or do you want to just be able to bolt it in & go? A couple of things to think about, while you're digging all this up. A 352 is relatively small by today's standards...most FE cam profiles are designed with either the 390, or the 427/428 in mind. A cam that is a nice, streetable one with a little lope to it in a 428....could be a PITA in a 352, especially with mild gearing. Overlap & lobe separation will affect the idle as much as the duration....it's all interconnected, but, you can choose a particular one to get a specific result. Different cam makers have their own approaches to things. Crane, for example, are pretty conservative in their descriptions & recommendations. Comp will routinely advise you to use grinds that are fairly "wild" for the application, & try to sell you lots of extra parts that are needed for it. Their newer cams also tend to have a lot of lift, taking advantage of wider Ford lifter diameters...not to say that's bad, but you may end up doing a lot of machine work/parts buying to make it all work together. Their Xtreme Energy cams tend to do this, & to get the "sound" you want, you end up with too much lift (to avoid machine work/more parts). These cams also tend to be noisy so far as lifter noise, which may or may not be an issue for you. For what you want the old High Energy line might work better....though I'd lean towards possibly a Dual Energy. Depends on some of your answers. I am not particularly a fan of the Summit cams, which are, mostly, old profile designs...but a lot of people use them & they may work out for you just fine. Homework due by this afternoon.
interesting stuff. More info... I've got a "remanufactured" never started 1966 Ford truck 352 that I want to put into my 56 2dr sedan keeping the 3pd w/OD. Not light but not a load either. I'm guessing it's got a 4.11 with the OD. It's a rebuilt to stock truck specs replacement engine. I don't know what the compression was for a 352 truck in 1966. We still had leaded gas then. I've always been hesitant about dealing with the cam companies. To me they are salesmen...Sure we have exactly what you need... Everything is new and never started... why not put a mild cam in it? I don't want a cam to make it go faster. I want a cam to make it sound good. I'm not trying to get 24 MPG but I'd like to do better than 12 MPG. No I'm a tight wad and I don't want this to get overcomplicated. I was planning on using the new stock lifters. They have no wear pattern yet. I'm trying to figure out where to make the compromise to get some sounds without making it a race car thumper. (I'd love to make it thump but I don't want to kill the mileage) I don't think you can have both. They may not make anything like that for the FE.
Yep call a couple cam tech lines I prefer comp cams, but whatever you want they will tell you what they have that will work the best for your specific ride
you can have both...i've got it with mine. there are several places that make custom cams for cheap. mine was done through uldradyne and even after going through the guy who designed it i was out $192 for the thing. not too shabby. i could get better mileage with the thing if i didn't have it jetted for top performance.
There is a cam comany in Arizona (I think) that will make any cam you want based on the info you give them about the engine the car and usage. They can make race cams or mileage cams. Torque cams or hp cams. I think you should call a cam company and tell them what you want. See what they have to say.
If you are interested in a custom cam, I would recommend http://www.deltacam.com/ ; http://www.bulletcams.com/ ; or Chris Nielson http://www.nielsoncams.com/ ....any of them are good & can do the job. One thing to consider here is that if it really is a truck-spec engine, it likely has very low compression....go too much on duration & you will absolutely have a dog on your hands, with poor mileage, because most of the low rpm cylinder pressure will be going right on out the exhaust. You are also limited in retainer-to-guide clearance & piston-to-valve clearance. A .500 gross lift is about max, and I'd at least check the retainer-to-guide clearance with a large paper clip (about .060, in other words, would be good). If you are more oriented towards an off-the-shelf cam, I'd suggest one of two: 1) http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D33-224-3&autoview=sku This is one of the old High Energy profiles & as such has a relatively narrow LSA and less lift vs. duration, which will give it a decent idle in the 352 without completely killing the low rpm torque. A little more cam would be the next one up, the Magnum http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA-33-226-4&autoview=sku I would probably not use it in your situation because you WILL need to check P-V clearance, guide clearance, & I think it's too much cam for your combination... My second choice, & possibly my preferred one, would be #2 http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA-33-207-3&autoview=sku This will give you a small amount more torque from 2000-4000 than the HE cam, though it's a minor point, and idle a tad smoother, though still noticeable. Last things: use the recommended Comp springs for these cams, the existing ones won't cut it; your new stock lifters will work so long as they're hydraulic; make sure your lifter preload & geometry is OK once everything's installed; and use the Comp moly cam sauce, plus either Brad Penn break-in oil, or add this to the oil http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=CRN-99003-1&N=700+115&autoview=sku Have fun....
Tommy, Tommy. Tommy, do it like a gold chainer would Pull the hose off the vac advance and f**up the carb adjustment and you'll get "the sound" Frank
Stock 428 Cobrajet factory cam would be perfect, they are 485 lift. If you want solids a 390/330 hp police cam
Ford did not measure duration specs at .050 as is common in the cam field today. All you need to know is they will work. I suspect they would be in the 215 degree range. With a 352 it isnt going to matter much what you do for a cam anyway. You could go with the 60 352/360 cam also. Bigger is better with Fe motors
Take a look at Crower Cams Compu-Pro series of hydraulic cams. I'm running a #1 Compu-Pro in my 9/1 CR 462" Buick in the roadster. Pretty much mid-range cam which is what I want. Idle is pretty mild, but an experienced ear can tell there's somthing there. A few years back I ran a #2 Compu-Pro in a 400 Cleveland 400-M. Had a nice bit of lope to it and it didn't kill gas mileage. Low end was ok as well which was nice since the engine was in an F250 4x4. Nice part with both these cams is you don't need anymore than the cam and a set of lifters. I checked clearances etc. and no problems, but you'll want to check anyway. Th 400-M got a set of Crower springs, but that's because the stock Ford springs kept breaking. I understand Ford Clevelands in trucks had a problem with the heat treat. Take a look in a PAW catalog or if Crower has a website for specs. You'll note that each engine series - IE: 430 Buick and 455 Buick has different timing figures with the #2 Compu-Pro for the 455 being a touch more radical than the #2 for the Buick 430. I did run a #3 Compu-Pro in the 462 for a couple of years. Pulled hard, nice idle, lopy etc., but replaced it with a #1 since I felt the #3 was bleeding off too much compression. The ol' dynamic vs static compression bit. The #3 required - in my opinion - a little more in the valve train dept, roller rockers, Crower springs, custom length pushrods etc. Looking from here I'd go for the #2 in your FE. It should give you what you want, not hurt gas mileage and sound good at the drive-in. Last Crower cam I ordered from PAW. I was going to go with Crower lifters as I'd done in the past, but the salesman commented that there were only three lifter manufacturers in the US at that time and why not try a set of PAWs Super Stock lifters. When I got the lifters I compared them to a like-new set of Crower lifters and they were identical right down to the cup casting marks. Probably 25,000 - 30,000 miles on the cam and lifters and no probs....
Crowler...that's a name I haven't heard in a while. I had a 63 Catalina in 1968 that had a 421SD with a Crowler 80R roller cam. I'm sure it had plenty of compression. We still had Sunoco 260. It got 10 MPG at 60 MPH coming across the country. 100 miles 10 gals. I didn't need a calculator. I did check Crowler and Crane web sites. I am hoping to learn enough here to be able to talk inteligently to their tech dept.s. Now you got me worried. Wicopedia says that a 66 352 f150 only has 8.4 to 1 compression. 9 something for a 352 sedan. I figured they would be the same. DOH! No I'm not going to be changing any pistons. If I spring for a cam, I want to be able to hear it. The 352 as it sits will carry me as fast as I'll ever want to go but I don't want to make it into a turd just for some sounds in the parking lot. The 4.11 gears should help to get it moving and being a toy, I tend to wind it out a little more than an automatic. (ya gotta listen to the pipes!) I don't suppose that there is any way short of a tear down to estimate the CR. Since it came from a production rebuild shop, even a block number wouldn't be reliable info. Damn 40 years I've been mis-spelling his name.
Without tearing off a head to get a good look at the piston top...not really, unless you have a borescope....and even then it's hard to say what deck height it has, or what the head gasket thickness is. Head casting numbers would give us a vague idea, though. Either of the two choices I threw at you will be OK with the low compression, considering the manual trans. The Crower Compu-Pros are as a rule good profiles, though a little older....I've heard issues with some of their stuff lately, dunno how true it is. I've used them in the past with no problems. The stock CJ cam is still a decent bet, though it can be hard to find sometimes. Crane, being fairly conservative, with what you are willing/not willing to do & buy, would probably give you this: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CRN%2D343971&autoview=sku It will make good power, but won't have much of an idle at all.
Didn't P&G make several interesting valve train type tools including a displacement gauge? You may be able to use one of the displacement gauges to calculate compression. Probably have to talk to a racing tech guy about using one. I'm not sure how the checking goes, but there is a 9/1 CR class the circle burners run and I believe they can check CR without pulling the heads. Another cam option may be the Mustang GT cam of 67-68 or so that came in the 390 FE engine. Pretty calm on the idle end of things, but good for idling down a dirt road or spinning up just under 6 grand. But . . .if you want the performance sound and are willing to give up some actual performance just about any cam with an advertised duration of 270-280 degrees will sound very nice. Back in the day, those were the big cams....
I dont want to pee on your parade but you dont have much to start with, small motor, crappy heads, no compression, heavy cheapo rebuilders pistons etc. Crane makes factory blueprint cams for the Cobrajets. Do not get a stocker race cam, they are heavy on the duration with stock lift. Too radical of a cam will kill the torque & mileage
They do make a displacement checker. They have been known to be inaccurate, for a variety of reasons...also hard to find unless you know the right people. However, it is one possibility. Another possibility would be to connect a std. compression gauge to it on the floor & try to get a rough idea of the cranking numbers...it can be roughly translated to get an idea of what cam will be suitable. Making a LOT of assumptions, the compression could be between 8:1 & 9:1, assuming that the pistons have valve reliefs but no dish. If they are true truck-spec replacements, it's likely under 8:1....but that's idle speculation. Those heads are basically revisions of the old C8AE heads, usually used on 390s. The chambers are between 67-76 cc, depending. Decent enough heads, and already have hardened seats on the exhausts. FWIW, they are from '72 or later.
Those D2TEAA heads are very much the same as the venerable C8AE-H "door stop" 390 heads seen on everything known to man except the D2 heads have hardened seats for unleaded gas use. That block casting number is all but useless on most FE motors (common on 352, 360, 390, 410 and 428 blocks)...you have to pull the heads/pan to verify bore and stroke to figure out what size the motor really is if you really want to know. Since your pretty sure this is a 352 truck motor (and a rebuilder special to boot) there's a very good chance (like about 100 percent) that it doesn't have custom pistons in it and thats the only way (with a 352) that your going to have much over a 9:1 compression ratio. The HP 352 motors used different heads with tight combustion chambers to get the compression up there. So, based on what you know, its safe to assume you've got roughly 9.1 give or take due to differences in deck height, etc... The other thing you need to watch (along with retainer to seal clearance) is the fact that you'll need 427 type adjustable rockers to work with any cam that has over .500" lift at the valve. Geometry and lifter preload go out the window with the garden variety FE non-adjustable valvetrain when you go over .500" lift. So, that being said, your walking a tightrope when it comes to picking a decent cam for the package without spending plenty of money. Good sounding cams don't go well with making mileage or power unless you got the compression up there to compensate for the cylinder pressure the larger cam will bleed off at lower RPMs. Your very limited in what you can do for it. We build plenty of FE's and we're fans of Crower cams....however, we've been using CompCams Extreme Energy and Dual Energy cams in our builds lately and we've been pleasantly suprised. Comp's High Energy and Magnum series cams aren't worth a bucket of piss in an FE....they just don't seem to work well in these motors. Since your limited on valve lift here's the two Comp Cams I'd recommend: Either the XE256H Xtreme Energy cam or the 255DEH Dual Energy cam would work very well. Both keep the valve lift below .500" and they will give you a little lope at idle without compromising power. Some folks recommend the 390GT/428CJ cam and thats the first one I thought of too, however, you don't have much compression - the 390GT and 428CJ motors were both over 10:1. That cam worked well in those motors but I don't think using that cam (or using old cam technology) is your best bang for the buck in this case. As always, use THE springs the cam manufacturer recommends and MAKE SURE you've got the proper spring installed height and VERIFY proper spring pressures before you button everything up. Good luck with it. -Bigchief.
BigChief, looks like we're on the same page. I would add a couple of things, as a passing note. The HE & Magnum profiles are damn close to 30 years old now & as such have been passed by long ago....with one possible exception, & that's why I mentioned one. They do tend to have more of a "lope" than some newer cams, or, maybe a better way to put it, is that they mostly have less lift vs. duration. For what he wants, that cam may suit well enough, especially since I tried to keep the lift under .500, for all the reasons you mentioned. The modern equivalent is the "Thumpr" line Comp is putting out now. Most of the HE & Magnum profiles were designed for the SBC, & with the SBC lifter diameter in mind.....not really my pick for Ford/Mopar combinations. For the same reason (the "sound") I went with the 207 Dual Energy; but a closer-to-optimal cam is the 206 Dual Energy for his particular engine. (The one you chose, I think.) It's not going to have as much of a lope, though. My only objection to the Xtreme Energy lobe profiles is that they make a LOT of lifter noise. Pretty nice otherwise. A couple of builders who have done recent BBF dyno testing have switched to some of the Lunati Voodoo lobes on their customs, because they found the power to be the same, but a quieter valvetrain. These are basically Voodoo intake/exhaust profiles on tighter LSAs than Lunati's.
Here is your dilemma: The sound you (we) want is the sound of inefficient combustion! The better the sound, the worse the engine efficiency (at low RPM). OVERLAP is what creates the sound we crave. Overlap is the product of duration and "lobe seperation angle", "LSA". All modern cams in Ford FE's make more than enough lift with an OEM 1.6 rocker arm ratio. I wanted what you want when I built my Ford 390 two years ago. I had a heavy car (T-bird Conv), auto trans, and a tall gear (3:00). I went with a Comp Cams XE262. It's a monster on the highway, solid in town, and has a noticable idle (at a LOW enough RPM). I get about 10 MPG in town. Since you have a 4:10, a manual, and a lighter car, you can afford to go up a step, or two, or three. Comp uses a 110 degree LSA on most everything (good). Isky uses even narrower (better). Comp will grind whatever you want. Their "thumper" cams are ground on 107 LSA (LOTS of overlap), Comp has links to sound clips on it's site. Crane and some others favor wider LSA which decreases overlap, probably not what you are looking for.
Knowing Tommy a bit and realizing he has cars like mine . . . with all the aerodynamic capabilites of a brick, regardless of cam he'll probably end up with a 10-12 mpg car in the city and maybe touch on 16-17 mpg on all-highway use. Granted, gas is expensive nowadays, but the key thing I think is how much time will the car spend at low speeds vs highway speeds? Thinking back over Tommy's picture posts seems too he's not afraid to go out of town with the car. My 32 gets pretty much the same mileage noted above. That's with the mild cam and jetted lean for the altitude - 3300' - carb. Combined city/highway mileage is 10-13 mpg and a recent trip to Hoover Dam and El Dorado dry lake beyond it netted just under 17 mpg running at 70-75 mph with a 3.70 diff and 30" tall tires. Since I drive a little more highway stuff here in Sunny Arizona than I used to, been thinking about a 3.25 or 3.00 diff. I'd probably do better in the city, but I like to hit it on the on-ramps. Not trying to highjack the thread here, but if I wanted a cam with lope, I'd get one and realize that only the low rpm mileage would be hurt. And that not too much. This time of year some of us are not driving our hot rods much anyway. Haven't driven mine since the middle of October. Headed for the donut run in a few minutes. 28 degrees F outside, headed for 22, but I don't think it'll get there. Don't worry though, the roadsters got a top....
Well....narrower & wider LSAs both have their place in the scheme of things. As a very general rule, larger engines can deal with a narrower LSA than a (roughly) equivalent smaller CI engine. Many (though not all) circle track cams have relatively narrow LSAs, especially the 400 CI class rule cars, which may have 105. On the other hand, certain Pro Stock drag racing teams use 114 LSAs & have been known to use 116-117 at times. "Nitrous" cams (intended for frequent N2O use) have wider LSAs; my BBC Lunati has a 116 LSA. "Vacuum rule" classes often use 114-118 LSAs in order to get by. As you've said, a narrower LSA can roughen the idle (because it increases the overlap), depending on the lobe profiles; both Comps I chose use 110 LSAs. This particular engine is too small & has too low compression to narrow it much more without completely killing the low rpm power, of which it needs every bit to get that heavy car moving. The Thumpr cams are hyd. roller, which will cost too much to convert over...have to be a custom anyway for a FE.
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