Technical "Beef Up" a Super T10 Transmission?

I have a Super T10 4 speed behind a 383 SBC in a '56 Chevy 150. It has a 3.73 posi with Caltrac bars and L60 Mickey Thompsons. The engine dynoed at 529 hp and 515 ft lbs. The transmission is a later one('80 or '81) with the crazy deep first gear which makes it fun out of the gate without super deep rear gears. I don't race the car or put on a ton of miles. I just take it out for some spirited acceleration from time to time.
I am going to have to pull the transmission for some freshening this winter. The slider occasionally hangs up/binds when going from 1st to 2nd and the 4th gear synchros have begun to be a problem. Since I have to pull the transmission anyway, I thought this would be a good time to ask a few questions which will hopefully save me some headaches in the future.

What parts of a Super T10 are the most likely to break when subjected to significantly more power than they are originally rated for?
Is there a way to "beef up" this transmission?

Thanks

 

Back-up...following along.

 

Sounds like a Trans Am T10.

 

Hot Rod Magazine last month had a full technical article on rebuilding the Super T10. That's a good place to start.

jack vines

 

Deep and short gears mean different things depending on type of motor sport. I have to believe your 1st gear is in the 3:00’s?

 

I looked it up when I first got the transmission 8 or 10 years ago. 1st gear was crazy. Something like 3.42

 

I believe at one time someone (doug nash?) made straight cut gears for them.

I also think that it was a super t10 that my buddy had in his 327 vette that seen 10,000 rpm lauches on it and it had the straight cut gears, noisy as hell but did the job.

.

 

The T10 was never a really 'heavy duty' trans, although the upgrade to the Super did address most of the original design's shortcomings. If you start replacing gear sets, it may prove cheaper to simply switch to a Muncie or even a Ford Toploader.

There are good reasons why both Ford and GM built their own 4-speeds to replace the T10, and Chrysler never did use them.

 

Mopar did use a T10 as their first 4 spd in 63 only.

 

Www.5speeds.com these are the folks to deal with, it will be stronger with a lower numerical 1st gear, but you might just freshen up your existing gearbox if you are not hammering it that hard and with limited traction on the street. The aluminum main cases are also a weak point on these boxes. A nodular iron main case increases strength considerably.

 

The Super T10 is a very strong transmission in good rebuilt condition. When I built my '63 Falcon with a .040" over 454, Edelbrock heads, and a lot of other upgrades, I chose a Super T10 from a 2nd Gen Camaro I found freshly rebuilt. With slicks on my '63 Falcon it launched wheels up at the drags, and took a lot of hard launches. I never had any issues with mine, and would use another without hesitation, or any need to upgrade it.

 

I make my living building clutch control devices for manual trans drag racers. One thing that I can tell you is that its far more likely the clutch will break your transmission, not the engine.

The Racepak graph below is of a dragstrip pass with an engine that puts out around 425ftlbs max WOT steady state. I added some averaged binary torque numbers to the lower part of the graph to reflect the calculated torque that the engine applied to the transmission's input shaft during the pass.

Note how this 425ftlb engine put out way more than 425ftlbs when it is losing rpm, and much less than 425ftlbs when it is gaining rpm. At no time during this pass was this 425ftlb engine actually sending 425ftlbs to the transmission's input shaft, because at no time during this pass was the engine operating at a constant rpm. The engine was either losing or gaining rpm at every point after launch while it worked its way thru the gears...



To wrap your head around this, you need to think of the engine's rotating assy as a torque storage device. Some of an engine's torque gets absorbed by its rotating assy as it gains rpm, then that absorbed/stored torque gets released as rpm gets drawn out of the engine's rotating assy.

From there you need to understand that the rate that the clutch draws the engine down is what controls how that stored torque gets applied to the transmission's input shaft. Using nice round numbers to make it easy to grasp the inverse relationship, let's say a rotating assy gains 3000rpm in 1 second while absorbing 200ftlbs of torque during the engine's climb to the 1/2 shift point...
...If the clutch then draws out the same 3000rpm over the same 1 second time period after the shift, 200ftlbs gets added back to the input shaft torque for 1 sec.
...If the clutch then draws out 3000rpm over 0.5sec (half the time), 400ftlbs of torque (double the torque) gets added to input shaft torque for that 0.50sec.
...If the clutch then draws out 3000rpm over 0.25sec, 800ftlbs of torque gets added to input shaft torque for that 0.25sec.
All three above examples of discharge rate release the same quantity of energy. Give the car 200ftlb "boost" for 1sec (200 x 1 = 200) vs a 400lb boost for .5sec (400 x .5 = 200) vs an 800lb boost for .25sec (800 x .25 = 200), it's all the same amount of boost available from returning energy.

Given that a 3000rpm discharge releases the same quantity of energy regardless of how fast you lose the rpm, you have to ask yourself how much additional torque can your drivetrain/chassis efficiently handle? If you throw an additional 800ftlbs at it for 0.25sec, is it going to break something? Can the shocks handle that hit? Are the tires going to be shocked into excessive wheelspin and waste a large portion of the returned energy?

When you just bolt in a typical non-adjustable clutch, you are pretty much locked into whatever rate it might pull your engine down against WOT. There is no advantage to buying a clutch that pulls 800ftlbs out of a 425ftlb engine's rotating assy. Don't buy a clutch with plans to "grow into it", pick one that's the best match for your engine and use. Not a situation where too much is just right. Excess torque capacity not only increases the clutch's potential to inflict damage on your drivetrain, but it will also slow you down at the dragstrip.

Grant

 

Thanks for all the responses so far.

Another question: Are the Richmond Super T10s any better(stronger parts?) than the BW Super T10? Or are they the same quality of components that Borg Warner used? I have heard a lot of hype. But, I'm wondering if it is just that, hype?

 

You are ready for one of these. Yep, it's an investment, but they are fantastic transmissions for your power level and have a nice tasty overdrive.

Tremec TCET17805 Tremec TKX Manual Transmissions | Summit Racing

-Abone.

 

I hope so!



The thing about the new Richmond units is that there are a number of gear spread options.
And they are just a mouse click away!

 

I actually have one of these transmissions that I bought from a buddy quite a while ago for a project car. It is supposed to be a Super T-10 with Doug Nash nickel pro gears, if that makes sense. Does anyone know if you can use a trans like this on the street or are the gears softer like a set of pro gears in a rear differential?

 

I'm not nearly as strict as some here regarding traditional parts. But, transmissions are definitely one of the areas where I draw a line in the sand. I will more than likely never have a manual transmission with more than 4 forward gears in an old car... definitely never in this car.

It probably rubs me the wrong way for the same reason I will likely always cringe when people talk about guys like Troy Trepanier(sp?). Because they remind me of a time when it became popular to build cars "the wrong way". Think(painted bumpers/grills, EFI, power windows/locks etc). I know not all of those things were "new" in the era I'm referring to. But, that's when they seemed to become common enough that I took note.
Sorry for the rant.

 

Just thought I'd add this for reference.

Earlier, I had asked here if the Richmond Super T10 had stronger/more durable components than the BW ST10.
I got a chance to speak with someone at Richmond and was told that there is no difference between a Richmond Super T10 and the regular production Borg Warner Super T10.

 

So basically use a clutch that's on the verge of slipping at the hit?

Or if you have a hydraulic throwout bearing you could use one of your deals to slow down the engagement and accomplish the same thing?

Just trying to learn...

 

Without any sort of clutch hit controller, the best you can do is a clutch that barely holds after the shift into high gear. You need about 1sec of clutch slip during a WOT dead hooked launch, but after WOT shifts that would be waay too much slip time. So instead of burning up the clutch with excessive slip, you must choose a clutch that will hold after the shift into high gear which will be a compromise during launch.

Another important thing to note is how spring design affects clutch clamp pressure and tuning window as the clutch disc wears...
...Diaphragm PP springs are typically designed to go "over-center" around mid-point in their travel range. They start out gaining clamp pressure as the disc wears, then at about the mid-point of disc wear the pressure curve levels out and begins to gradually lose clamp pressure for the rest of the disc's life. Basically, you end up with about the same static clamp pressure at the end of the disc's life as you had when it was new.
...B&B and Long style PP coil springs gradually lose clamp pressure as the disc wears. That means you must start out with a wide margin of extra spring pressure when the disc is new, just to have enough static clamp pressure to hold at the end of the disc's life when it is thin. These pressure plates will require quite a bit more pedal effort when the disc is new, but that effort will come down as the disc wears.
Hypothetical example of why this is important to understand- let's say a given combo wants 2800lbs of single disc clutch clamp pressure to hold after the shift into high gear.
...With a typical diaphragm spring, you need 2800lbs of pressure plate with a new disc, in order to have about 2800lbs at the end of the disc's life.
...With coil springs, you might need 3500lbs of pressure plate when the disc is new, in order to still have 2800lbs of clamp available when the disc is used up.

In general, regarding clutches that are installed out of the box without any PP shimming...
...A diaphragm sprung clutch that is closely matched to its application will have a wider average tuning window over it's life, as clamp pressure varies less over the life of the disc.
...A coil sprung PP starts out with a narrower tuning window when new due to excessive clamp pressure, then that window gradually opens up as the disc wears. Generally, a well-matched out of the box coil sprung clutch will perform its best just before the disc is worn out.

All that said, the purpose of my clutch hit controllers is to temporarily soften the hit of the clutch to add slip time during launch. The Hitmaster is the hydraulic one, but I also make the ClutchTamer which is a cylinder that attaches to the clutch pedal. That unit works with both mechanical and hydraulic release systems. You can also use it to soften shifts made using the clutch pedal if you have too much pressure plate.

Grant

 

I just spent some time on your website. Very interesting read: thanks!

 

The short answer is YES , but at a price!
Pfitzner Performance Gearboxes in Adelaide Austrailia do a straight cut gear "dog box" conversion for the ST10
These were a control gearbox in NZV8 touring car racing
With a decent shifter [eg: Long] you can do full throttle clutchless up-shifts with one of these.

The biggest weakness with ST10's is the input shaft and countershaft drive gears .They are quite narrow, and strip the teeth easily.

 

I try to keep my builds with a traditional look, but I'm just the opposite when it comes to drivetrain changes that allow me to use and enjoy my rides more. So a car with a OD gear is exactly what I'd want so I'm not winding the heck out of my engine on the freeway, or stuck only driving my car around town.
I have two cars with almost identical drivetrain, gear ratios, and the same pie crust slicks on the back. The big difference is one has a typical 1-1 ratio trans, and the other has an OD trans. When I'm driving my old Austin gasser down the freeway at 3200 rpm's, vs. my '39 at the same speed and 2100 rpm's, I'm really happy I went to the OD trans to make it easier on my engine rpm's. I've put maybe 14,000 miles on my non overdrive trans Austin in 12 years, and put over 8,000 on my '39 Chev in just the last year alone.

 

The strongest actual super t 10 is an iron cased one with 9310 nickle alloy gears, very hard to find but they do still exist. It was an over the counter replacement known as "power brute ". I built a mid 9 second car years ago and used a Gforce 101 4 speed which is based on a supert10 but is rated at 1000 hp,simular to a Jerico ( face tooth dog box). I used it with an adjustable sintered iron clutch designed to slip as mentioned above.

 

Kerry
In 1970/71 I swapped the three speed for a T-10 in my 57 BelAir, some months later it started popping out of second gear(common) on deceleration, was told to call a guy, he would fix it, called him and he said he would take it in trade/cash for what he had in it.
It was one he had built for a local drag racer and the guy never picked it up, said I would need to use a Ford clutch disc, said it was common as the Ford T-10 had a high nickel gearset, fixed my problem but because the 283 was pretty tired I couldn't really find out how much stronger it might have been.
That was a great car!

 

I have a super T10 that looks to be worked a bit, I need some of the old salty dogs here to tell me what they think. It sat on a shelf in the back of a transmission shop in Jacksonville Florida for 20+ years. 2 ring 26 spline input shaft. Looks like the casting of DNE2 was ground off the passenger side of the case and it was stamped as shown in the photos.

 

I had a Super T10 in a big block Nova and it took a lot of abuse and never broke.

 

I didn’t know Doug Nash made any Super T10s,,,,,,they made an overdrive unit for GM at one time.
DNE2,,,,,Doug Nash Equipment and Engineering,,,,thus the E to the second power .
Doug made an excellent racing 5 speed,,,,,and a street unit as well .

That looks more like a G force T10,,,,,but,,,there have been a lot of T10 stuff made over the years .

Tommy

 

the muncie is no better thats for sure

 

ANY manual transmissions weak point is the human controlling it .