Ford slashes production again...

Ahh!
So you understand that these mega corporations are INTERNATIONAL.
What does that mean?
It means they really could care less about US citizens.
These days the US standard of living is on the decline, and has been for decades.
The third world countries ARE being changed by the international corporations, but the US is being changed even more.
In truth, we are quickly coming to have a class system just like Mexico and China.

The "American" (I use the term loosely) car companies haven't been making decent cars in DECADES! Many people who passionately wanted to "buy american" finally gave up on them!
Guy buys a new Chevy pickup, has a rear main seal failure in two months, takes two months to get it fixed. Has more problems, sells the lemon and buys a different Chevy.
Same kind of problems.
The guy had been a loyal Chevy guy for 40 years.
Swears off them now.

Ever work in engineering for a large corporation?
I called it "socialized engineering".
Make powerpoint presentations all day, go to meetings to talk about doing something, go to training classes that have nothing to do with you jobs (reeducation), etc.
If you are lucky you can spend about 10% of your time actually DOING ENGINEERING.
What was the first car designed this way?
They bragged about how much marketing had influenced the design of this car to make it the Best Car for the American people Ever!
Try the Edsel.
The mega corporations of today will drop the ball every chance they get.
They are certain to mismanage things until the company is bled dry.
The workers?
They are just liabilities to the people at the top.
If you want to buy American, support the small companies we do have.
Look to the Aliiance vendors for good examples of this....
They provide the products we actually want, and yes, the prices are higher than we want to pay, but we get GOOD products that actually WORK.
How long have people wanted new early Ford bodies?
Ford *could* be making them, they have VAST resources.
Would they?
Their lawyers, marketing department, and management would never let it happen!
Never!
They'd rather lose money on 50,000 cars a year in the hope of making money instead of making 10,000 bodies a year at a certain profit.

regards,
DJ

 

It will be interesting to see how the Japanese automakers respond to the competition from Korea and eventually and more importantly from China. We'll see how they handle their bottom line when they are competing head to head with manufacturers who enjoy a major cost advantage over them. Already chinks in the armor of the mighty Toyota, Nissan and Honda are begining to appear. Both in terms of quality and design there are problems. I said this a long time ago when you build only a couple car lines and simply improve on those from year to year everything goes well. Now that the Japanese Big 3 are competing in more and more vehicle categories problems are starting to appear. As was mentioned above stuff like trannys, engines ball joints etc. This stuff is the type of thing that happens when engineering is "half baked" and replaced every few years. You see the typical American yuppie wants something new everytime they go and buy something to one up their neighbor. All this new shit comes with teething problems. The anti- American press crucifys American companys for this and gives foreign automakers the pass. Do a little digging if you don't believe me.



You wanna hear a good one? (disclaimer; I could'nt hold a candle to the average US autoworker in terms of skill and talent) How about all the employees give back say half their pay for a year or two or however long it takes? Demand that the company reinvests that money into key needed products and plant updates. Do this until Ford is back on solid footing and taking it's place as a leader. Why that's crazy Mr. Floored! I dunno I think it would be quite reasonable. The "can do" attitude which made this country great and helped us prevail in little scuffles like WWII is all but gone if you ask me. Everyone seems to be whiners now. From bitching about the price of gas to "aw you mean I gotta pay for my own health insurance". I read down this thread and the most prevailing argument is Ford and GM should have known about higher fuel prices. The underlying message there is the evil corporate honchos should have been forcing econoboxes down our throats for our own good 'cause someday gas prices are going to rise to about half of what the rest of the world pays. I don't know about you but I've always driven economical vehicles. I routinely laugh when my usually fully well loaded Ford Ranger is parked next to a Hummer H2 with a 110 pound soccer mom coming out of Home Depot with two celing fans or new bidet faucets. I call bullshit on this whole deal. Are the mind police going to tell her she has "too much" vehicle. Gimme a break!



BTW giving pay back to reinvest should not be an unusal concept for the typical American. Anyone who has been an entrepanuer and tried to create something new and on their own, knows about giving up income to invest in the future. I have learned these hard lessons myself and it aint easy but it's awsome when it works. Put my carreer future in my own hands any day, I'm over reliquishing control of that to someone else.

 

It was about 1981 when a couple of us were demonstrating a piece of equipment at a GM foundry in Pontiac, MI (as I recall). While involved in the demo, I was hit in the back with a small chuck of cast iron thrown by some union guy and later had dirty foundry sand blown in my face by another union member using an air nozzle aimed at me. I heard a couple of them laughing as I rubbed sand out of my eyes. I'll bet I looked laughable, but I smiled and continued.
My next car was a Toyota and I haven't owned an American Big 3 car since and I never will.
I know it wouldn't be nice to call the union guys a couple of assholes, so I won't do that. I'm sure that individually, there are many wonderful people who belong to the union. But collectively, as a body, the union can pound some of that foundry sand up their collective asses.
If Ford or GM should fail, I'll be ambivalent knowing many, many good people will be facing hardship. On the other hand, ha ha, tough shit.

 

I must think you are just using this "bully kicking sand in my face" incident as an excuse for your prejudice against unions because there sure isn't any logic working in the reasoning you have posted.

Actually it would be nice if you did call the two BULLYS who threw the iron and blew the sand at you assholes instead of condemning the thousands of decent people who have been forced to "incorporate" into a labor union just so they can have some negotiating power against the Corporation that cares more about the dollar than the people making it possible.

When I was in grade school in the 50's the class bully would regularly cause some trouble and the usual punishment dealt out by the teachers was "All you students put your heads down on your desks for five minutes" while the same bully would still act up.
I noticed in your bio that you are a teacher...
Did this way of blaming an entire group for the misdead of ONE ASSHOLE rub off from that kind of wrongful class dicipline?
I don't know what your position was in that foundry, why you were there, or if the equipment you were demonstrating was replacing union workers jobs and that's why they were treating you "bad" but I smell a lot more to this story.

 

Let me see, I believe the Courier was made by Mazda and the Pinto exploded when rearended. A real inovation for gas mileage.

 

I've heard of this practice from other sectors in the industry, from glassmakers to seat mfr's. It is a practice of the Japanese to do this to drive down supplier prices. Is Ford on the quality ball? I don't know, but I wouldn't hang my hat on this as a shining example of Jap quality control.

Personally I think it's a moot point whether the Amercian mfr's can produce something world class. If they designed something world class, it would be extremely difficult and costly to produce here. Why? Because they couldn't find the skilled workers needed. The average American high school graduate nowadays doesn't have the knowledge needed to build cars. No idea what statistical quality control methods are, no knowledge of machinery, nothing. Our kids are being educated by (mostly) housewives who are doing it for a second income, and I haven't met one yet at any level who thinks a job in the trades is a desirable career -- it's so "dirty". They don't even know what a machinist is, they have a vague notion of what an electrician does, but they are pumping our kids to be business grads, lawyers, or ecologists. What passes for a "shop class" nowadays is mostly BS.

 

Read the message about how much we owe the World. We don't owe the World a damn thing. If it wasn't for the U.S. there would be no World after WW2. We have built and supported every country in the World for the last 60 years. (Am I lying?) We Americans are getting damn tired of all of this. The (World) has had 2000 years to build thier countries (and haven't) We 've built the greates nation in history in 200! years.!!

 

Interesting comments and thoughts by all. What is the real cause of all this ?
In the mid 1800's the world was in the infancy of what is now called the "Industrial Revolution" . Today the entire world is in the same early stages of what our childrens children will know as the "Technological Revolution".
We are all responding to changes that are being caused by technology. Foreign labor costs were a minor influence on the American worker. Once the large super transport ships were built and the foriegn goods were able to be shipped at a reasonable costs not only to the U.S. but all over the world, the whole picture changed. Now add the jet airliner, the computer and the internet. Hell even the illegal immigration issue is influenced by this . Would you have left Mexico on foot or by horseback in the 1850's to come to Chicago or Detriot and then freeze your ass off in the winter waiting for work in the spring. Technology is the root cause of these issues faceing american industry and every citizen of this country . People are uncomfortable with change and today we are faced with change at levels and speeds never expierenced before. All are searching for answers. In another 20/30 years or so the Chinese labor will have lost its advantage and cost just as much as in other parts of the world as their standard of living changes and they buy the goods and services they to make their lives more comfotable. Can we stabilize our lifestyle and standard of living ? Were writing Chapter 3 in the history book dated 2075.

Just my thoughts .

Larry

Oh by the way on my previous post I talked about Ford paying a royalty for hybrid technology for what its worth. One article was published in the Wall Street Journal , the other was a 4 day special in the Chicago Tribune. Maybe the media is slanted from time to time but sometimes they are on target.

 

Well said. Good points. At least some of the charter schools get it. Visited with a teacher from Moscow a few years back and learned the drop out rate to be 1 in 10,000. Even if it's 100 in 10,000 it's still way lower than here. I asked; how come? He explained if your not science, math if not math engineering, if not that a trade, if not that a sport, if not that a professional of some kind until you fit. I see that as much better than the yellow boxes with wheels picking our kids up all going to the same place learning the same thing. Your point is well taken!

 

I would love to show it to you. It says Zenith on it and it was made in Chicago.

I have one "newer" car. '95 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham. Rear wheel drive, LT1 powered, 300 hp, and 26 miles to the gallon highway. It was built in Texas. It's the second one I've owned (traded a gold one in on a triple black one)...the first one I traded in with 226,000 miles on the clock and it still looked like new and didn't use any oil. The one out in my driveway just turned 178,000 miles. You ever do a break stand with an Altima? Powershifted through the gears in a Civic? I'll bet you 20 bucks one of those cars wouldn't put up with one hour of my kind of abuse. However, that big Fleetwood out in the drive will leave a nice 20 foot patch of rubber...even if it is a one-wheel peel...

I've owned eight Cadillacs over the years (among other cars) and keep in mind that I'm only 30 years old. "Standard of the World" still means something to me. It comes from a country where people take enough pride in their work and the quality of what they produce to declare a statement such as that. At least that's the way it used to be. I can't get over the fact that I'm the only one in my neighborhood flying an American flag. I try to buy American...keep the money here to help out the people here.

The best car I've ever owned is my '59 Coupe deVille sitting in my garage right now. I've personally put over 275,000 miles on this car in the last 7 years. We rebuilt the mill about 200,000 miles ago, and it still runs strong as ever. I bought the car with 116,000 miles on it, so that car has seen almost 400,000 miles. That says something to me. Granted, this car was designed by Harley Earl, back when quality was job one and people actually gave a shit. I know that GM isn't the same GM as it was under Earl's design eye...and it hasn't been for a long time...but I have faith that it could be again. Cadillac has taken some bold moves in the last couple of years...that alone tells me that GM is willing to take risks to turn it around.

I don't know, this is only my own opinion, and like they say, opinions are like assholes...Ford and GM are having problems, and maybe they'll be able to turn it around. Maybe they are both sinking ships...only time will tell...but I'm gonna keep buyin Cadillacs until they don't make 'em no more...

 

Here is a quote from their website "In November 1999, Zenith became a wholly owned subsidiary of LGE."
I guess that means all the profits go to Korea.
I'd bet the TV is better described as "Assembled in Chicago".

regards,
DJ

 

MYTHS

Toyota is making money on their hybrids?

NOT

Its a great loss leader thats being used to bring people into the Toyota showrooms to buy the big pick up trucks which is where the profit is.

American cars get crummy mileage? Lets look at the average size of the foreign cars and the average size of the American cars in the last 20 years.

Looks to me like the foreigners are moving upscale faster than the Americans.

So the government will subsidize the purchase of a foreign built hybrid sold in America. Has to be enough to make the WW2 guys puke in their coffins.

Foreign auto manufactures are building new plants in America at the same time Americans are closing plants. Do you think theres just the slightest chance that Union greed is part of the American problem?

We could still out think the foreigners to make our vehicles cost competetive.

One thing we could do is look at the cost of engines. What is the advantage of having more than two valves per cylinder in an engine with variable size valve events? We could reduce the amount of parts in a cylinder head by 50% with just this one innovation.

 

Ford has ALLWAYS had there head up there ass! I worked for Beverly Hills Licn. Mer. for 15 years in the late 70s and 90. What we called the IACOKEA years. Lee wanted out and he made the ulgest cars i have ever seen from 78-89. I remember the crays of the Jeep small SUV was going on so ford got in about 8 years to late and then people were buying the surbeans/ so 5 years to late they made a big SUV. Thats ford ALL ways 2 steeps behind. Sorry for the bad spelling but i cant find spell check here to fix it.
thanks Dave

 

They crippled themselves with unrealistic profit expectations. Poor quality, high salaries, and the UAW also took their toll, when maximum profit at the expense of quality is the strategy its only a matter of time before the clock stops. Big 3 could get away with it before there were so many other choices, now they cant. Example: Hyundai's used to be junk and sold poorly, now they've pulled their quality up to the top, and sell like crazy. People will pay for quality, Hyundais arent cheap anymore....

In 2004 I wanted a new suv and wanted to spend 30k or less, drove the Envoy, trailblazer, tahoe, explorer, everything.. and for the same money bought a used 99 Toyota Landcruiser because even with 50k miles on the clock it felt tighter and newer than the brand new trucks I drove, Its now at 120K and hasnt changed, still feels tight and rock solid. on the other hand, The Lincoln LS I bought for my wife in 2000 told me everything about why Ford is having trouble, and we had to sell it way below wholesale to get rid of it with only 45K miles.

When the quality returns the buyers will, just hope its not too late!!

To be fair all is not rosey for Toyota now, problems with the Prius, and Avalon have knocked them off the No 1. spot for quality, causing Toyotas CEO to be called in to explain the quality issues. You can bet they'll regain the top spot along with lexus. Can you see our govt getting involved like that?

 

Your "American Made TV" is assembled of majority (ie over 50% )foreign parts, thus making it a foreign product whose profits go overseas according to the people here...
Congratulations, you bought a foreign TV set.
If you care to argue that it truly is American made, then the US assembled Toyota is ALSO a domestic car.

Can't you guys see that the American Made arguement is a moot point anymore?

So, you think your TV is American made? Great. Look at the label on your shirt. Look at the DVD player. Look at the watch on your arm. Look at the stereo.Look at your furniture...Look at the rest of your home and tell me, is EVERYTHING made here, or did YOU shop for the best deal and buy foreign?

So, why can't I buy a Hyundai if they make a great product for a great price and stand behind it?

Mark

 

I can't help myself for laughing my ass off at how so many people can be so stupid all at the same time. The law of supply & demand is the same today as it was yesterday and will be the same tomorrow. IT WILL NOT CHANGE. Ford, GM, Chysler and all other car makers are at the mercy of the buyers wolrd wide. YOU, can I say this again, YOU are the buyers in the USA. YOU are the ones buying Japanese, German, Swiss and Swedish. YOU but these for many reasons, most of them good reasons, but YOU are the ones buying them. Want Ford to survive,,,,buy a FORD. Want GM to survive,,,,buy a GM.
May I say more?

 

You really missed a whole bunch, they're making shit, no one wants shit. It sucks that you can't for the most part get quality US made products. It kind of sucks. That's the problem. I'd pay more for them if they were made.

 

I frequent many Oldsmobile sites. We went through this whole scenario a few years ago when Oldsmobile was booted. Same story, same reasons, same bitches and complaints, same problems..................

 

Thanks you Sir!! We used to make springs for the big three but most of them went overseas. Just got a letter from a company last week thanking us for the 30 years of great work(springs) and service. Well the end sentence said it all, were going to CHINA...
Please buy American! it supports U.S. workers and their families!!!!!!! and to Vote quote=Beep]I can't help myself for laughing my ass off at how so many people can be so stupid all at the same time. The law of supply & demand is the same today as it was yesterday and will be the same tomorrow. IT WILL NOT CHANGE. Ford, GM, Chysler and all other car makers are at the mercy of the buyers wolrd wide. YOU, can I say this again, YOU are the buyers in the USA. YOU are the ones buying Japanese, German, Swiss and Swedish. YOU but these for many reasons, most of them good reasons, but YOU are the ones buying them. Want Ford to survive,,,,buy a FORD. Want GM to survive,,,,buy a GM.
May I say more?[/quote]

 

Hyundai is I think a great example here...they firmly established an absolute crap reputation when they entered our market, selling slightly obsolescent Japanese designs without the durability. They attacked the problem head on with a serious guarantee and enough improvement in quality to meet the guarantee and apparently prosper. They would be remembered with their contemporary Yugo if they hadn't recognized and dealt with their genuine problem.
I don't think I've ever been in a Hyundai--but I did notice that our many Korean graduate students proudly bought them when they appeared here, abandoned them in horror after short ownership, and now have returned to Hyundai as the product became reliable.
That's the key--recognizing the existence of a problem and doing something about it. Ford and GM don't seem to be capable of that--temporarily cranking down the price til people accept what you're selling is going to get harder and harder to do as more countries with cheap labor figure out what people want to buy.

 

Boy was I surprised !!Took a new Pontiac G6 4 door out for a ride. No creaks, no rattles nice power looked nice( had the coolest sunroof ) Handled well.....hhmmm...The only reason I was even in it was beacause my daughters friend had just bought it. I would never even had thought to consider one. Thats the problem. All this America stuff-sucks..Jap stuff good mentality is flawed. Gonna look at a Fusion now also. Hey try some out. You may find the domestics are really nice cars. my 2 cents

 

Throughout this whole post, I haven't heard one person point out the obvious - if you buy used, it does nothing for the manufacturer; further, if you don't buy the parts from the manufacturer, they are going to get a net nothing from your purchase.
But you DO help the domestic economy by purchasing parts from your local store.
So my purchase of a used Merc helps my neighbour get money AND get rid of a car he didn't want.
It helps my local NAPA (and junkie) by my purchasing parts through them, some of which may be domestically produced.
It helps the environment by recycling a car instead of using resources to build a new car; in addition, this particular car will be converted to waste veggie oil, further helping the environment (and my pocket).

As to a reason that the Big Two are in trouble, just look at the exec's salary, and esp. at what they are paid after they are producing NOTHING!!! (not that they do much at all as it is). As has been pointed out, the line workers' pensions are fully funded by law, but the execs' pensions are NOT. Plus, in some cases, the execs' pensions are in excess of the liability for the line workers' pensions. To think that this has naught to do with the cost of business is pure fallacy.

As to product, supply and demand is the rule, not the exception. And the Big Two are not building what people want, period.

As to those who state that the domestic US products are as good as the foreign, I say you have not lived with a foreign car. Whomsoever has ever told me that foreign cars break down just as often as the domestics, that person has, to a man, not owned a foreign car. And as far as Harley owners go, nearly every one of them lies about the reliability (or lack thereof) of the bike. Having lived with a new Harley, and been close enough to others to see for myself, I can state that with full confidence.

Cosmo

 

Probably will regret even getting involved -but -

Quality is the problem in domestic cars. I've been lucky that mine didn't require constant dealer service - just little things that slowly drive a person crazy.

I had a '97 SHO which would sometimes refuse to turn off the domelights. And of course it would do this at night, and the light shines right in the drivers face (bad design). Had to tape crap over the light just to get home. Most S10s (yuck) driver side door handles break at 2 or 3 years. My delivery vehicle is a large Chevy van, 2001 model. It tough and carries a lot. It also uses cheap plastic crap in the door latches. So from time to time our delivery guy can't unload the van, cause the stupid door won't open. Incredible, cheap crap latches that won't last 5 years on an expensive commercial vehicle. Just a few examples.

All late model cars are made out of cheap plastic but at least the Japanese models use plastic that'll last longer than the payment book.

Its a shame.

 

Well talk about shooting myself in the head, went to start up my truck after posting on here after work (2004 F-150 4X4 with 5.4 with 40K) and my starter, wires and battery went up in smoke along with some other goodies!!! They tell me it's ok to pick-up tonight??????? Burnt the snot out of my hands to keep the sucker from going in flames!!! I don't know it ot would have but come on! I have had three sets of Phazers (fancy lifter set-up) put on the motor because of noise. Also know it smokes a bit if you let her sit for a day or so on start up. They tell me it fine to do that I don't think so!! Truck has been in the shop a dozen times Quality is a huge issue and so is service!!! But what a customer to do or a buyer, you can bitch but nothing happens.. I don't know about customer service on imports but Ford need to do something.

 

well, I'm not defending American fit and fisnish or choice of material, but I can say Jap cars do the same thing- our '92 Mazda literally self destructed RIGHT at the 150,000 mile mark. All of a sudden within a month or two span, almost every plastic interior piece broke- door handle, outside door handles, sunvisor retainers, the center console, drink holders, everything it's all cracked or warped, adhesive started melting and pieces falling off. The check engine light is on 50% of the time even after numerous servicings, brake fluid mysteriously leaks to nowhere , it tells me there is a rear brake light out, but all the brake lights works, something wrong with the sensor I guess, the defroster fan started making horrible noises when cold. Just all of a sudden, that engineered lifespan came into play. So, I don't think poor quality is exclusively American!

 

Everyone's personal experiences cloud their perception of the "big picture". I have owned about 50% foreign/50% American. I almost always buy used. I had a BMW 733i, top-of-the-line at the time, and within a week, two door handles, the heating control system, the sunroof, and the central locking system all went out. I also had a VW Golf GTi, that wouldn't run for shit unless the A/C was on, and no one could figure out why. I've had American cars do stuff like that, but the cost to repair them was a quarter of what it cost to fix the foreign jobs.

As to Harleys, they use enough jap parts that it's hard to say which side of the ocean is causing any problems. I've owned 5 of them and never had anything major go wrong. A guy I work with bought his Big Twin new, and has put 158,000 miles on it in 6 years without the motor being open until the cam chain had to be replaced this year. But in that time the (Asian) alternator has failed twice, the (Asian) starter motor once, and a bunch of nickel-dime stuff has broken, most of which turns out to be Asian.

 

My brother in laws Mitsubishi galant.....Glove box broke. windshild wipers stopped, 2 trannys, leaked like the Valdez, on and on....I guess it does not matter where it's made just luck

 

P.S. Almost forgot my sisters Nissan had a sunroof fire !

 

Lots of thought provoking posts to this thread. I wish to clarify that I'm not against American cars. In fact, almost all the cars I've ever owned have been American. My last four vehicles before my current daily were two S10's and two Taurus SHOs. But here's what i ran into when I had to shop for a car in 2004. ( I got hit by a hospital van that ran a light -- somethings just wrong about getting injured by Baptist Health).

I had over $3000 credit on my GM card. So I shopped Chevy first. Aveo? That thing's a street legal tractor and its not even an American car. Cavalier? ZZZZZZZZZZZ. Other models? Rental car or old person's car. With money on the table I couldn't get excited about buying any thing GM offered.

Tried Ford. Focus? Just didn't do a thing for me. Mustang? I liked it, but not enough trunk space for my work. Taurus? I had no interest since the SHO was discontinued. Big sedans? Naw. Most of the lot was pickup trucks. The salesman told it straight -- Ford, the F150 company.

Alright I'll admit now that I'm prejudiced against Chrysler so did't look there.

Finally test drove a Mazda 3 2.3 liter and it was much better than the competition (remember this was in 2004). I felt a lot more confident that the vehicle would last compared to the domestic competition. So that's what I bought.

It comes down to Chevy (GM) and Ford just didn't show me they wanted my business. So they didn't get it.

Today? I'd give them both the benefit of a doubt. Toyota and other Japanese companies seem to be compromising on quality. And I've seen a lot better products coming out of Detroit. But I still wonder about Ford and GM. Now they plan to sell mini cars that are "feature rich" - translation, get a tiny car that still costs an arm and leg. Chevy is introducing an Aveo thats to be as luxurious as a Cadillac was ten years ago. I'm sorry but that's just putting lipstick on a pig.

Go ahead and flame me.

 

My son in law just bought a 2006 F250 with a turdo diesel. Sticker was 42 thou.

Fenderwell liners are like mudflaps. I can't believe you have to remove the front clip to do any thing major to the engine./ Couldn't believe it til I opened the hood and then I believed it.

Hard to believe the front end isn't a tilt afair like many other trucks.

Pick up boxes have gotten so tinny you almost have to put a bed liner in them to do any serious hauling.

Aman has it right, Things will get worse before they get better.