Thanks, man. I did know this, but it’s good info to have in the thread. Guess I won’t know for sure what block I have until a head gets pulled. I’ve read that in addition to the rocker shaft bosses location on the Buick that the Olds had the extra bolt in anticipation of the boost from the turbo on the Jetfire. Great photos of the two blocks!
Tri-power... and intakes in general... Looks like we got stock 2v and 4v intakes. Then there are vintage Edelbrock 4v and 2x2 intakes. And Edelbrock Performer. Offy still makes one or two 4 barrel intakes. Maybe a two-deuce. The Buick 300 intake is rumored to fit 215 heads, but not entirely sure... so if true, that opens up aftermarket 300 intakes as well. I’ve heard but can not confirm that there’s a tri-power intake for the Buick 300. Strictly sticking with the 215... it looks like the only way to get three duces is by way of a 4v to 3x2 adapter. I know zero about how well this would work. I actually don’t have any experience with multi-carb setups... so any info that could be passed along would be appreciated. Is it worth considering over a 4 barrel other than the (undeniable) cool factor? I worry about TV linkage setup to the Roto... There is currently on eBay a Hilborn fuel injection setup for the 215.
4-71 is a small gmc blower. From a 2stroke diesel that is a four cyl, w/each cyl = 71 cubes. The 6-71s are the ones that everybody wants now (or larger), but in the 60's, the 4-71 was popular. It may not have been a real popular item in the day for the 215 mills(remember, everyone was going as big as possible back then), but its use is also "traditional" - if that's important to you. Makes decent boost, esp on a small mill, fits well, is Al ( ),looks great!, etc. Easy to drive, if you can resist the temptation for "exhilaration". . They'd drive like a stocker, as long as you keep your foot out of it, under light load cruising or hwy usage, fuel economy *might* go up (fuel is getting mixed real well by the rotors), as the blower isn't boosting, it's running in vacuum, up to a point, depending on how you have it set up in terms of boost level. You don't want to run lean. I would get help w/tuning. Nice addition to a stock mill for extra torque down low when wanted. Again, key is keep the oem redline. Don't need hi-po cams, hi-compression, etc. One decent 4bbl is fine. This isn't for bragging rights, but for fun-on-demand. Just good basic engine. The Gary Dyer-style 4bbl manifold adapter isn't going to be a deal breaker on the street, since you don't want/need hi-rpm performance. Don't know how it'll effect the trans, but if it's not in good shape, or gets abused, a better one *will* be needed. Lots of bang-for-the-buck. & the boost is changeable, up or down). Believe it or not, only 3psi (in the manifold) will really wake up the mill. & put a smile on your face. That's what the Paxton put out for Stude. & they would haul. Claimed 6psi, but that was at the blowers' outlet(centrifugal-style). 6lbs would just be more fun... . & later engine mods would make it all the more effective. BTW, if MikeVV would consent to do a set of heads for you, & you can swing the coin, I'd go w/him. He's been real careful, & good at getting decent #s from the Stude heads - & they're hard to do well. Marcus...
Boy, lemme think on this. I’m still pretty sure Phase 1 is gonna be a bit more tame, but with the exception of finding another hood (har!) it sounds like this is sorta, maybe within the realm of kinda possible. Ya come to the H.A.M.B. asking about a mild cam, some head improvements, and maybe headers on an obscure motor in a weird GM compact and all of a sudden you’re seriously thinking about a blower off of a Jimmy diesel and looking for an extra hood to cut a hole in... what the EFF is in the Koolaid around here?! (That should be on a t-shirt...)
We have installed Old's heads on the Buick block not using the upper bolt. No problem. It is an Oldsmobile. Scarebird makes an adapter to convert the front brakes to disk. These cars had terrible braking systems, but the addition of front disks makes a world of difference. Leave the rears stock. One of the features of this car is no weight over the front end with a 300 lb motor. The addition of a big block Buick or SBC changes handling characteristics and requires the drastic alteration of the drag link. In your case, maybe an Edelbrock 500, but no more. Adding turbo or blower means changing compression ratios, stronger rods and 4 bolt mains. I have both blown and carbureted engines. I am running a four barrel adapter to run a triple carb setup on one of my engines for show and it is a pain in the ass. You and your son have fun with this car. Keep it simple until you are ready for the big buck experience. Warren ps: I have been building every imaginable itineration of this engine for 33 years. PM me if you have any specifics in mind or just want to talk.
WHY?........talk blower and dual quads when a mildly hopped-up 5.0 would run circles around it?? It's a 215 cu. in. engine!! Basic hot rod stuff will make it a fun ride but never a strip king. A nice 3 angle valve job and clean up the exhaust ports will make a noticeable increase. Head work is NOT black magic!! With the heads off you will be able to see what you got as for as pistons /deck goes. A nice cam with springs and lifters will help too. Not too crazy on the duration but a tighter LSA(108-110*) will get you more low end grunt. Something that's done by 5500RPM will work well with the stock bottom end. Not too much on the lift to work well with your rockers.(470-500) Compression is power so think about thin head gaskets. >>>>>>Don't be afraid to experiment with your ignition timing! (light springs) + MSD box! I don't know how much total timing but.....bring it in quick for better performance.( 2000-2500 RPM) Set the initial timing by advancing it until it starts to rattle when going into passing gear.......then drop it back a couple degrees. DEFENETELY use a timing light! <<<<<< Of course a 4 barrel(vacuum secondaries of course!) and AFTER MARKET intake. (doubtful a factory intake will do anything for power) If not headers at least have the manifolds opened up. 2" dual pipes and flow thru mufflers all the way back.. IF its gotta be a single exhaust at least substitute a bigger diameter pipe and muffler (2.5") Let us know what you do......sounds like a fun project we could all share! 6sally6
Hey, man. I'll definitely reach out when it's time to dig in... or sooner. I appreciate the offer! I'm considering the Scarebird set up. Honestly, before any engine mods, I'll be dealing with suspension and brakes. The car will keep the 215 or a derivative. And I don't think I'll add a turbo or blower to this car... there is another clean '63 in the northeast that has some cosmetic issues and includes a second Olds 215 that I would consider picking up if something more radical really grabbed my interest. This blue Cutlass is a really complete survivor. I think I'll try to keep things moderate and traditional for now. And Spencer is excited for the car to come home for the first time (currently being finished up in the body shop...). He wants matching Oldsmobile hats.
I ran a 215 aluminum Buick in a Midget race car back in early 70's, Pic from 1970, the start of a 21 year adventure. If memory serves, Isky flat tappet cam, vertex mag, racing pistons highest compression we could get as we ran alkohol. For a low dollar engine it ran good, still have the tri carb (ford #81 carbs) I modified a 4 barrel aluminum manifold. WE/I were a low budget deal at this time, stock rods, modified oil pump, seems I remember a book we bought, a lot of info from Mickey Thompson as he played with an Indy car using this engine. Good Luck with your car and give some thought to high compression as here in Wisconsin 91 or 93 premium is $1.00 to $1.50 per gallon more if it's your daily driver.
As far as exhaust goes, There is very little if anything in a header for these cars that will fit in your car. D&D sells a set of huggers for their installations in MGs, but they don't flow any better than stock manifolds. The original exhaust was a single pipe running down the drive hump. It was 1.25" so I initially installed dual exhaust (not much room for running it) of dual 1.25" pipe. It helped but sounded like a bee hive. Later I installed 1.75", it sounded better and gave just enough back pressure. When I installed the well built D&D motor I install chambered exhaust. That breathed well and had a perfect sound. The stock manifolds are a good design and breath as well as any headers on all my set-ups. Warren
Why? Well... you know. Just ponderin'. I'd love to do the head work myself. I've considered searching out another set of Buick heads to try my hand at it while I drive the setup in the car as-is. Sorta get everything together and modified then swap it in. Then I still have the "stock" heads... just in case I'm not as gifted as I think I am. Ha. If there's a book or other good source of info on working heads, I'd appreciate being pointed in the right direction. The block has been decked as part of the rebuild so until I pull a head, pistons, deck, quench area, static compression, overbore, etc. is a mystery. I know I gotta do it to get baseline data for modifying it, but with the car running as well as it is at the moment, It'll be tough to screw with it. (I'll get over it.) So yeah... your advice is right on point with my initial plan. Work the stock heads, a cam/spring/lifter swap (thanks for the guidance there!), thin gaskets (compression... I'm ok with premium gas), aftermarket intake (Offy? Edelbrock?), a 4 barrel (tri-power was only a fleeting interest ), and exhaust. Done by 5500RPM, band shifted lower if possible. The 4GC that's currently in it runs well. Whoever set it up did a nice job. Secondaries come in smoothly and when they should. But... I'm good with an aftermarket carb if gains are to be made. Open to suggestions. Holley, Edelbrock, Autolite, Rochester, others are all good in my book. I like Quadrajets, but I think they'd over-carb this motor. Only hesitation is with keeping the transmission shifting like it should. Ignition - I've heard good things about the Pertronix in-cap conversion. No matter what set up, I'll re-curve it to be all in by 2000-2500. I've been tweaking the timing on the 350SBC in my Suburban and it's pretty impressive what a few degrees can do for a motor. Exhaust... I need to chat with D&D or someone else that's done headers in these cars. I'm not sure of off-the-shelf solutions, and custom-built isn't in the budget right now. I've heard the Rover manifolds flow a little better than the Buicks. Here's the thing with running duals on these cars... It's a unibody, low to the ground, and the stock exhaust runs in the driveshaft tunnel to a muffler mounted sideways ahead of the fuel tank. (PO of this car deleted the stock muffler and put in a Thrush cherrybomb...) Dual exhaust can be done, it just takes some creativity getting under-over-around things like the transmission, crossmembers, axles... I know one guy that ran side pipes and dumped in front of the rear wheels. Another reworked things to get an effective Y-pipe junction to encourage scavenging, then ran 2.25" in the driveshaft tunnel to a dual-outlet, free flowing muffler in the stock location. Here's a pic of the stock setup (not my car...)
I just got through doing what you initially asked about to the 215 Buick in my Morris Minor woody. It already had a small Crower cam. I replaced the way too large 625 Edelbrock carb and stock intake manifold with a new Edelbrock manifold and a 390 Holley. I built some 1 1/2” headers and a 2 1/4” exhaust system with low restriction mufflers. It will have an MSD ignition as soon as I find a place to hide the box. What an improvement, it’s smooth, responsive and quick. I would forget the blower unless you can find a small Eaton or something similar and have good fabrication skills. Forget that hokey 3x2 to 4 bbl adapter thing too, that’s for show cars and rat rods, not performance. A 500 cfm carb is still too big at this point. I would get a current Edelbrock manifold (before they stop making them) and a small Holley or rebuild the Rochester 4 Jet with a good kit from Carbking. Upgrade the ignition and add a cam when you feel like going into the motor. On the exhaust side, at the very least install dual exhaust and good mufflers. Don’t go too big, 2” or 2 1/4” to keep the velocity up. Block huggers may be slightly better than the manifolds if anyone makes them to fit your chassis but building or getting custom headers is a better choice. I would buy an extra set of heads, send them to Mike VV and have him massage them. That’s what I’m hoping to do in the future. I’ve always wanted one of these cool little aluminum engines, this one just happened to come in a fun little wooden crate. Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Looks like we were typing about exhausts at the same time, Warren. Chambered exhaust isn't something I considered. I'll put that in the old brain box for when it's time to do exhaust. Good to know the stock manifolds breath well!
Yea, Bob... sounds like you executed what I had in mind! Which Edelbrock intake did you choose? When you say "current", are you talking Performer? Still thinking about ignition... I may search out TWO sets of heads. One to try my hand at, and once to send off when I screw it up. Har! The exhaust will be a challenge on the Cutlass, but I think the gains there will be worth the hassle. Dad just chimed in and said "side pipes". I think he's getting excited for this car, so there will be three generations of Sabos wrenching on it.
The engine had a good run in world racing also with Jack Brabham winning in the Brabham BT-19 powered by a much modified version of this design. With their own cylinder heads and fuel injection the cars won 8 Formula 1 races, finished on the podium 25 times in 33 races and were F1 world champions in 1966 and again in 1967. Engine shown with Weber carbs.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/res...ds-lightest-fuel-dragster-back-meet-underdog/ can't find it, but there was a twin 215 front engine dragster back in the 60's. ryan, all of us are here to help you out(of your mind).
That story of Underdog is great! Appreciate the help! This has been a hell of a great welcome. Fun stuff. And this won’t drive me out of my mind. I build bamboo fly rods. I’m used to obsessing over .001” of thickness of a hand-planned strip of bamboo and driving myself nuts pondering weird, obsolete glues. Somehow I’ve managed to keep a marble or three.
Edelbrock only offers the Performer, but Summit also shows the Offy 360 intake for the 215. I’d like to see an A vs B dyno comparison but when performance is the criteria, I lean toward Edelbrock. Ignition wise, since this car won’t be seeing any serious high rpm action I’m just going to finesse the stock distributor and add an MSD coil and a 6AL I have lying around. Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
That looks fantastic! I bet that’s a fun ride. I’d like dyno numbers too, but I don’t think there’s a ton of info out there. The Offy 360 single plane and Edelbrock Performer seem like the only new-manufacture options, but there seems to be some nifty vintage stuff around if ya dig. Actually... I wonder if anything is currently being made in the British Rover market... Anyway... Performer prob makes sense but it would be fun to track down a vintage intake for this build. Man that Minor looks fun!
Looks like a fun car to just make a nice cruiser out of. I appreciate wanting a little more power, but realistically you are limited by the cubes. It will just never make as much as a larger engine. So just get this one running good and save for the bigger Rover engine. Any money put into this will take longer to build the engine you really want in the end. I don't know anything about the intakes, but a dual plane will be better than single plane for your street driving. Sounds like the Offy manifold is single plane. I believe all Performer are dual plane? I do agree a small 4 barrel carb is the good choice. If it were mine, I would not even pull the heads. Just get better flowing (and sounding) exhaust,and improve the intake and carb. Use stock points distributor with new good parts. I would not put money into a cam, since the longer term plan is to build a different engine. The trans is going to limit you, and adding a bunch of money into this engine just takes away from a better build starting point Rover engine. Also a manual trans with OD will be a nice upgrade. For sure doing a disc brake conversion is wise given crazy distracted drivers around. If you don;t have them, add seatbelts; especially for the kid, but also for you. Oh, and some better 5 spoke wheels with a little altitude adjustment on the suspension will be perfect.
Sound judgement, brother. We’ll see where this goes. I’m not looking to get a ton out of it. I know the displacement limits things, but we can get a little more and make this 2,400lb car scoot pretty good. And have fun doing it. Carb, intake, exhaust, ignition and see where we are. Then consider the more “intrusive” stuff like heads and cam. Maybe we won’t get to that point before we go after a built motor and a manual. (The stick conversion parts are gonna take a while to scrounge...) But suspension and brakes always com first on my jalopies.... except on this car. They’ll come second... since rear seat belts are literally on the top of the parts pile. Altitude adjustment on this car will be UP... back up to stock or an inch or so higher. The Datsun wheels are coming off. The OE steel wheels came with the car. They’re getting sprayed the body color (for now since there’s paint mixed... May go back to black...) and I have a full set of poverty caps. I also have a full set of the full wheel covers, but they aren’t a particularly ‘performance’ look. Black wall tires. Not much choice in aftermarket wheels for this bolt pattern as the PO found out. Hence the Datsun rims. Does mentioning redline or white letter tires get you thrown off the HAMB?
Found on the interwebs... I have zero opinion on this. This guy knocked out the high beams and used them for the air inlets on a W-30 (or -31???) style forced air setup...
Thanks, Marcus! Here’s the Buick 215 in the Cutlass as she sits now. https://classicoldsmobile.com/forum...556319-215-v8-warm-over-thoughts-img_5761.mov
Hey, Ryan; Forgot to mention. See if the seller can remember who or where the mill was rebuilt. If it's a good shop, even a 1-guy deal, they may have records n specs on the build. Might save you some time. If you can find some decent 215 Olds heads, IIRC, they're better than the buick nailheads in terms of breathing. Usually had a fair amount more compression. Don't remember about the squish. Don't know how they compare to the Rover heads. & as mentioned, search out Mickey Thompsons' efforts w/them. Those mills weren't junk, or made w/crap quality. Glad to see you're saving this one. & maybe more... . Fully understand why you'd want to go down the conventional route, as it's a good one. Either way, you'll like the result(s). Sorry iffen it came across like I was harping on the forced induction. I wasn't, just suggested an opinion on a reasonable-cost way to get the lower-rpm torque n hp you wanted, w/good low-mid rpm range, + street manners. They're not all alky or nitro rumbling beasts... . FWIW, the reason I suggested the 4-71 was for usability at low(er) rpms. The McCullough as used by Kaiser/Frasier, Stude, Ford, Mercury, Shelby, etc, came in 2 versions, 1 w/a planetary drive(multi-speed pulley effect), 1 (most) w/o that feature. They're made for ~215+/- cid mills, but work at mid->high(4-4.5 k) rpms, don't need the carb box. Do like Avanti did. The Latham axial-flow blowers are great, but don't put out much boost due to the design, but the boost is very hi quality, also works at the hi-end of mid->hi rpms. Turbos can be set-up either way, + can do drawthru or blowthru. I was thinking of HAMB-era type forced induction that's be friendly for the street, on a stock or almost stock mill. If you want to keep the costs down, but get into homebuilt, for fun, you could consider the BeltDriveTurbo. Unfortunately, the site is down/gone, due to Yahoo pulling the plug on everything. A brace of Webbers will help, look outasite, sound great, pull hard(closest thing to stack injection - but w/driveability), but that isn't cheap, nor is the tuning... ;( , but at least the wallet will be thin enough to sit on easily... . Any more convo on this aspect of things probably should be done via PM, if you want more info. The 390 4bbl was a really good suggestion. Almost stock is also a good idea. All & any modifications have some sort of negative side, to a point. What are you comfortable with? I have a few decent books on porting, I'll try to find the titles for you. If you can, you might want some junk heads to cut open & practice on. The most important area is near/around the valve seats. Porting may be like falling off a log for some folks, but it helps to know what really works. & why. Example: much as I love Studes, the bowls are too big for the ports n mills. I don't know of anyone who can grind an oem as-cast too-large bowl smaller. ;( . & fillers come out. ;( . & air doesn't do what you want, the way you want, or expect. ;( . Unfortunately, I don't do F......k, due to "issues". Hopefully there will be some good advice given there. Marcus...
The Hampshire-Herbert-Steen twin F-85 Olds AA/FD at San Gabriel Raceway, 1962; note: that is Phil Bellamy, photographer and creator of Drag Sport Illustrated, shooting in the background.
The Jalopy Journal
