Hot Rods Is It Worth It???? Model A Frame WITH Matching Title

Ha ha ha. Not helping. That’s what she said in a round about way.

 

It's good to have priorities. Now tell your loan officer to give you a rate that is .125% higher than you locked. So if you locked 3.25% for example at par (no discount points) and you take instead 3.375% he will owe you money. If you are borrowing $350,000 he would rebate you somewhere around $1500 at closing, applied toward your buyer paid closing costs. You bring in less cash to close and have the money to buy the frame and enough left over to buy a little something pretty for the wife. It will cost you about $18 bucks per month for the higher rate.

 

I'm good for $100, if anyone else wants in.

 

What happens to someone in California that buys a frame from Brookville or any other frame builder WITHOUT any ----ing number, and builds a finished car with it? Bob

 

Many new frame manufacturers can supply a legal new number. You'd have to ask Gimpy how that works in his state for particulars.

 

Its all about how your state handles it. Most states a new frame means it will be a 2020 SCV (Specially Constructed Vehicle) titled car and need to meet the emission rules for a 2020 car. Some states let you title a 100% new car as the year it represents. Some states have a procedure to legally replace a damaged original frame with an new frame. But it has to be done within their procedures. DEPENDS ON YOUR STATE. Also when buying a car from out of state. What is legal in one is not legal in another. It is on you to know the law.

 

That would be nice. It's so tiring reading the same California title carp month after month, it would be nice to have a standard answer to link to. So glad I live in Connecticut. Bob

 

...except in cases where the vehicle is identified by the engine number, not the frame number, which was the case when Model A's were new and first registered. Unless you live in California which will not accept an engine number as a VIN even if the vehicle has been registered that way since it was new. Or so I'm guessing

So all I'm saying is the statement "Without a frame, a title is a useless piece of paper." is not universally true. In this specific case, and in CA in general it may be, but not everywhere all the time.

In my case, I have a Model A frame with no numbers (they didn't all have them) and a title that matches the engine number. I would have no problem getting tags for this vehicle here and wouldn't be bending any rules doing it. Well until you point out the vehicle no longer has the original engine, but there is legislation in the vehicle code (from 1949) which deals with replacement engines.

Bottom line, in Michigan a title is not useless even if the frame doesn't have numbers on it.

 

Trying to make a long story short, when I bought my '31 hot rod it had an Ohio title. When I went to title it in Pennsylvania, the commonwealth vacated the Ohio title and sent me a new VIN tag for my firewall. The PA title now reflects the new VIN. I have no idea if the body and frame belong to each other. Somewhere down the road it might be interesting because the title for this Model A originates in 2003.

 

I didn't think model"A"s had a vin # on their frames, I thought they used the # that was stamped on the side of the engine block.
I know the 1932 did have the vin on the frame and transmission case, but I never saw one on a Model"A" frame. ??

 

I think some did,some didn't. In the case of my A, the engine was a 1975 350 Chevy so not quite a match.

 

"It will cost you about $18 bucks per month for the higher rate . . ." for the rest of your life.

 

Ford started stamping the serial number on the frame in either 26 or 27. The engine assembly was lowered in the frame and the frame number stamped to match. All Model A's had numbers on the frame.

 

We have a specially constructed vehicle program.

Any properly manufactured frame should have a MSO (Manufacture's Statement of Origin) number on it, and supporting paperwork, or at-least a receipt for purchase. You take that, and your documentation of how you came to be owing all of the parts (receipts, even had written are fine), and have the car inspected.

It gets issued a number and sticker by the DMV. About 5-10 days later, you get a title, as what it appears to be.

There is so little to it, that it always amazes me that folks would rather commit a serious crime, than actually do it properly.

 

There is no "California title crap" happening here, Bob. You are showing bias.

Almost all of the laws regarding the titling of vehicles is set at the Federal level. Just because the jokers over in Wethersfield don't have their act together, does not mean that other states fail in the same way.

 

Correct.

Only in the case that the frame was replaced due to damage, and someone failed to transfer the number to the repair part, would the frame be missing the number.

 

If you have a title, and it does not correspond to a stamping, or raised numbers, or both, that are permanently affixed to a vehicle, then all you have is a decorative piece of historical paper. An engine is not considered permanently affixed.

That decorative piece of historical paper cannot be legally used to identify a vehicle, or to prove ownership.

Once linkage between paperwork and verifiable physical evidence has been broken, the existing paperwork becomes void.

Titles are issued at the state-level, but many of the the laws regarding them are set at the Federal level, so it is everywhere, all of the time. Your state might be lax in enforcing, but that does not change the laws.

Only a state agency can issue a title, and that title has to be based either on an MSO, directly inspected numbers, or sufficient evidence, as inspected and approved for a special construction.

In your "titled by engine number" example, should the original frame for your car be in the possession of someone else, while you have the engine block with the same number, depending only on the fervency of your local law enforcement, you could BOTH lose your respective vehicles. At minimum, they would be looking askance at you, as you have the non-permanent part.

Lord help you of any of the involved numbers, like the frame number on your car, which you are not titled to, shows up as stolen.

I cannot believe that in 2020, over 20-years into the information-age, we are still talking about ways to skirt long established laws, especially when actually following those laws is not even hard, and doubly especially so when getting caught now is so much easier.

 

I used to do work for a guy that would rather spend $200.00 and a week of his time to get out spending $20.00 and 20 minutes of his time to follow the rules.

 

I sincerely hope that he and his wife have not taken on a mortgage that will last as long, or longer than they are likely to live.

 

How long is that?

 

Oh, and I forgot, if you have a part that is worth over $5000, and you cannot prove how you got it, you need to get a bond, which is a whole $100, once.

 

Only problem is the number is under the body which requires at a minimum to raise the body for verification. I've passed on more than one Model A that was currently registered and licensed where the vin number on the certificate of title (pink slip) didn't match the engine number.

 

Also in some states like Louisiana. Title bonds are not only not recognized but are in fact illegal.

 

Other than California making money on the deal how does someone buying a straight eight Bugatti crankshaft in excess of $5,000.00 (or Chip Foose wheels)really need a bond on the thing? Bob

 

Actually, no. The acreage consumer only keeps a mortgage less than 7 years. They sell, refi, whatever. Those aren't my stats, those are national mortgage stats. I've been doing this for 30 years and If I had a dollar for every borrower that paid off their 30 year note on schedule I wouldn't have enough for a Starbucks latte. not even a small.

 

Technically, yes, however, I can ask Chip to write out a receipt for the wheels.

 

CHP will be happy to take you car apart for you, if the number is in question.

If the number on your frame does not match the one on the title, then you don't own that car.

If someone presents the title for those numbers, they get to keep the car.

 

Here, they stay on the title, if unchallenged, for 3-years, at which time, you get a regular title.

 

I bought a T bucket built in the 60's with an unknown frame. it came with a model A title on a Non Op, and there were black and yellow California plates that went with it but the widow could not find them. sold the non op title to a guy who bought a complete original A and could not title it with the numbers that were actually on the frame because they were already in use. he paid $350.00 for that piece of paper. I never heard back from him so i assume it worked out.

 

It is really odd that many of you guys that are out-of-compliance with the law fail to see the bigger picture.

These laws are in-place to keep the vehicles of law abiding citizens from going through an involuntary ownership change.

It appears that many of you may have obtained paperwork for your vehicles in exactly the same way that a criminal would. You may not have had criminal intent, but the process was the same, and in this country laws govern behavior.

More and more, records are going digital, and will thus essentially be kept in perpetuity, and instantly shared among states. That increases the likelihood that far more people are going to get caught, doing what was already, and has long been unlawful, even if nobody cared.

This hobby is already under strain from all fronts. From aging-out, property values, safety and environmental regulations, insurance costs, eventual fuel supply issues, etc., the last thing it needs is a really bright spotlight, and magnifying glass pulled over it, to look for unlawful activity, regardless of the intent.

This is another good time to remind you all that many of these regulations actually were not put into place against folks like us; however, legislators do not see any distinctions. All they see is "those car people". We are all the same to them. They don't, and cannot make laws for Kustoms, and different ones for JDM, or British, or donk, box, and bubble enthusiasts, etc.

The only reason that some states to not issue titles for older vehicles, or don't keep back records is that they do not have the necessary fiscal resources to invest in storage and record keeping software and hardware.

Those days are passing. Storage is becoming ridiculously cheap. Just five of our NetApp storage racks at work could hold the entire active set of DMV records for the State of Connecticut. They are 8-feet tall, 30-inches wide, and 45-inches deep, each.

The day of reckoning will come to your state. Make sure your affairs are in order.