Projects '23 Model T Gow Job - AKA: Sand Creek Special

That snow mobile event should be cool... we had 2 around here...
a T mail deliverer in Oxford and an A from behind a long defunct ski resort went to old man Sanborn...

 

My buddies and i will be there also. My first time. Do they do a swap meet?

 

No swap meet. It's just laid back and fun. I had a blast giving rides on my doodlebug. The food being cooled up was excellent, located in the storage garage. The Snowmobile club last year (I'd imagine this year too) had merchandise for sale in the clubhouse. It's a fun time to mingle with nice people for the day. Dress warmly!

 

Will this guy be there?

 

I knew someone was going to post that. Thanks for making me laugh today!

 

Well, Ive had some time to research and digest a few things and as it turns out, I've found some parts through some great people and have had other deals pop up. I may not be using some of the parts, but I grabbed while I could not knowing the final direction.

Lets start with the parts I've recently acquired.

Frontenac reproduction rocker stand castings and shafts:


Inspection pan and block spacer to run a Model A crank in a Model T block:


2 Model A transmissions, bellhousing, flywheel housing, flywheel, driveshaft, torque tube, u-joint:



Nice set of A- rods with good babbitt, appear to be .030" under-size from a quick measurement.


I needed a couple of Model A cranks, they came with free blocks. The one was a almost complete short block that still turns over. This was a great find and deal. Also bought 2 more '35 front brake drums. I'm gathering a small collection for some reason.....


And if your thinking I've jumped ship and powering the Gow with a Model A engine, your wrong. It will still be Model T powered. Frontenac made a special oil pan to allow the use of an Model A transmission behind the T. Those are made of unobtainium. But, the premise behind the whole idea made me realize, the A transmission is the solution i was seeking for a couple of issues I wanted to overcome. Of course this absolutely now forces me to use some sort out outside brakes. But hey, that's the easy part---right?

 

Ah ha! You did get the stands and shafts!! Dibs on leftovers

 

So do you run a T cam or an A cam? Or is there a difference?
If not Pm me your address. I have a NOS aluminum cam gear you can have.

 

I'll probably run a T cam.....but hey you never know. I guess you can run A cams, but the block has to be bored and you run the cam right on the iron block. Or you might be able to turn the A cam journals down. I havent looked that far into it. There are other mods to the cam that need to be done, modifying the front to accept a T timing gear for one thing. The A gears are far to big for the T engine.

On the A trans, I am taking measurements to be able to run with a T crank or A crank installed. This way I can run a more stockish T engine to start.

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Hmmm, must have forgot to tell you. I succumbed to peer pressure from yourself and a couple others to get them. I'm probably not going to use them, but I have them just in case.

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So now that I have a truckload of parts, lets get to doing something else on this project. I had read somewhere that a Model A flywheel housing will bolt to a T block. Well, that's sort of true. The bolt pattern is close for sure, and you can physically run bolts down the 4 holes. But..... the first thing you encounter is the rear cam bushing protrudes from the back of the block (for that matter, the cam shaft also.

After doing some measuring, the rear cam journal (and bushing) are 1.800" long. The protrusion from the block is .500", soooo I think over an 1" of journal and bushing is still plenty. So lets start by cutting it off...By the way, this is a cracked mock up block Im using.



A little smoothing it out.....




Now lets bolt that housing back on and see where we are....oopps, next area of interference. I will relieve the block in this area so the housing sits flush and and seals the rear cam bearing like a stock Model A.




So, that's about where I am. We ( @David Mazza ) did some preliminary measurements with both a T and an A engine to find the distance from the face of the crank flange to the back of the block surface. So I'm working up the math so the flywheel will be in the right relationship to the flywheel housing...and thusly the bellhousing and transmission.

For now this is as close as I have gotten. Also of note is the two upper external ears need to be smoothed flush on the block side of the flywheel housing. The holes don't line up exactly, but I will just slot the holes so I can still use them for the extra support.

 

Guitarguy, have you thought about a B transmission with V8 gears?

 

@studebakerjoe I have not. As it is I'm charting unfamiliar waters with some of the A stuff. But also the A stuff was cheap to buy. It seems (to me anyhow) the later you get, to more expensive it gets.

Is the B trans physically bigger than the A trans? I am totally unfamiliar with them.

 

Its bigger than the A trans but will bolt up to flywheel housing.

 

This is a model B transmission case. With this you'd have a choice of gear ratios and you would have synchros too.

 

@studebakerjoe Neat. I wonder if it is any longer than the A setup. Are guys with A's using them? Or are they longer and require to shorten the torque tube?

It's something to keep in mind for the future I guess. But the dollars involved say the A stuff will currently get swapped in.

 

I have a B trans in my 31 roadster. To use the B trans you need an upper B flywheel housing instead of the A housing. The bottom half of the housing is part of the B oil pan. You would need to rob this part from a B pan or make your own cover. The length of everything hooked together is the same so no need to modify drive shaft or torque tube. Gearing to 48 will fit but you need a 39 shift tower for the 39 to 48 gear sets. An A flywheel will not work with a B trans unless it is lightened to fit.

 

If it was easy everyone would be doing it hahahaha

 

Thank you for the well written info.

I think for now, I'll just stick with the A trans and parts as I have it already, and even that is still light years ahead of the T trans. Plus it seems the B stuff is a little harder to find.

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I remember some of the T guys telling me they ran A cams. They turned down the journals but the problem is the bore in the block...the lift of the A cam won't fit through. So they would hand grind a little groove in the cam 'bearing' area in the block so the lobe could pass through. I've never done it but these were old school fastest up the Long Beach Hill climb guys who DROVE their T's to the extreme. Maybe it's done differently now?

 

I don't think it's done differently now, but finding the exact info on doing things like that with the cams, and with the transmission mods I'm doing is vague at best. I think alot of it was done pre-internet and of course most of those folks are no longer with us, or IF they post on the net are vague in what they have done to do it. So in essence, I just have to figure it out myself. If I owned a lathe and Bridgeport, It sure would make things easier for me, but lets face it, someone building a car like this probably didn't have a whole lot of access to resources like that.....kinda like myself now.

So with that said, I did make the statement in the beginning that some of the fancy stuff will be kept out of sight as much as possible. Also, some of the stuff I'm going to do may have a little butchery to it, because of a lake of some tooling, and some I will tap on some friends that at least have lathes to help make some of my adapters. Some may or may not approve of the things I may do to achieve the goals I need, I do have many years of experience with what is safe and will work, and I love to experiment with what actually can be done with very little. However in the end, maybe not having fancy machining equipment will keep the build a little more accurate and true. You can decide for yourself.

Stay tuned......

 

None of those guys ever went on the 'net and sadly most of them are gone now. Some of their stuff was crude and some very very nice, all was bitchin.

 

I think guitarguy meant pre-internet.

 

Why cant you just bore the T block to A cam journal size? They both just run in the cast iron, no bearings as such.
or if there is enough meat I have heard that cam bearings from an English Kent Ford will work in an A block for the Model A cam...for pressurised engines I guess?

 

No, they both don't run on cast iron. The T has babbitted cam bearings (two halves snap ringed together) in position one and two. The rear position runs on a bushing.

I haven't totally looked closely, but also I don't believe there is enough meet in the block to open it up to the journal size of an A cam. Turning down the cam journals however is an option. But then just loke the crank, the end cylinder cam lobes get off center. For what I'm doing, I'm not totally sure it's the best option for me...at least yet.

 

I did, thank you for catching that spelling goof up, I will fix my Per to Pre.

 

What the hell is wrong with me. The same guy called me and said he had more. I think I have a good supply of A cranks now .

 

If you end up with leftovers you don't want let me know.

 

B case needs a B flywheel rear flange is tapered to clear the case, an A will hit. Bob

 

So the rear one is of no consequence as the lobes don't need to pass through . The other two have bearings .Two choices remove the babbited bearings and measure the bore...? Maybe there is bugger all to bore it for the A cam. If so bore hone and run the cam in cast iron like the A ... might have to organise better oiling..Second choice if the lobes will pass through without the bearings in there cut the journals to T size insert the cam until only the journals need to go in then insert the bearings with the cam in place and then push it home.
Now I know why I will run an A motor in my Gow Job if I ever build one... period correct to December 1927 specs!!! Because while I have a good mate with Ts to drive if I get the urge , and I have owned and driven a couple of stockers , I think I am too damn old and cranky to learn about another set of Hop Up methods for another motor, and cant be bothered collecting up all the stuff anyway when there is more then enough A and Flathead V8 stuff in the barn already. .