Hot Rods Am I the only one who gets a tightened sphincter when using those "modern lift plates"?.........

I found a chart , but it was metric, so I selected a 7 mm bolt and at 27 ft/lbs it has over 5000 lbs of clamping force! So by torquing the 4 bolts to say 25 ft/ lbs each you are adding approximately 20,000 lbs of extra clamping force/ stress to the bolts and threads to lift a 700 lb engine. I thought it was a lot but not that much. Maybe some of our engineers will chime in here








Bones

 

I used one the other day to move my Chevy BB into the bed of my truck and the machine shop used it to unload it. Never though of it being pulled out of the aluminum intake.

 

Ive never used one. Never will. those little bolts aint that strong. You might warp a big intake like a FE ford? a stout chain has worked for 50+ years. If its not broke don't fix it.

 

That's how my machinist lifted mine to get it back into my car. I'm sure he has done that thousands of times.

 

As most have noted, the issue is not with the bolt strength. According to Alma bolt, the maximum tensile strength for one 5/16" Grade 5 bolt is listed as 5,500 lbs. Clamp load is about 3,300 lbs, which is the load typically the bolt is designed for. Safe working load limit ratio is typically 4:1, so that is 825 lbs. Remember that is one bolt!

For threaded depth, a quick calc shows a minimum depth for a 5/16" bolt is 0.267". I could have made an error, but it seems to align with a minimum of one thread diameter. This assumes the bolt, and the material it goes into have the same tensile strength. For aluminum, it is hard to say because we have no info as far as material, but the threaded length is adjusted (multipled) by the ratio of tensile strengths of the male (bolt) and female (hole). For simplicity, if we use 120 ksi for the grade 5 bolt, and 40 ksi for aluminum, that is a ratio of 3:1. Therefore, if you are threading into an aluminum intake, the threaded depth should be approx 3 x 0.267" = 0.8".

The reason for this is that the theory (for safety) calls for the bolt failing before that of the female thread, but in reality this need not be the case.

Someone more familiar with all this than me should be able to confirm if the above is correct.

The point here I think is to make sure all the rigging is in order. I remember one day my father-in-was moving an old wood furnace (probably one ton) from his basement using the bucket on his tractor. Once we had pulled it up the stairs with the tractor, he slung the chain around a steel tube on his bucket. My brother-in-law was there as well, and the both of us were walking beside the tractor helping to keep the furnace from swinging when all of a sudden the chain let go, and the furnace fell to the ground narrowingly missing the foot of my brother-in-law. We all just stared at one another wondering WTF. The next time, my father-in-law made sure the end of the chain was properly secured to the bucket and not just wrapped around a few times.

 

Sounds like there are a lot of loose sphincters when using lift plates.

 

Ziggster, that is my point! I’m glad you found the chart with clamping values. If you torque the bolts , you will be putting 3300 lbs of force on each bolt and aluminum threads, plus the weight of the engine. That’s over 13,000 lbs of unnecessary stress.
If you just snug the bolts down with zero clamping force, the bolts and threads will only have about 750 lbs of force divided by four. That’s less that 200 lbs per bolt.

I never torque my lifting bolts more than snug.









Bones

 

I've seen the numbers and understand that it a safe method but I just can't bring myself to hang a V-8, much less the engine and trans., from that little plate and bolts threaded into aluminum manifolds. I use a leveler-style with four chain attachment points. Call me over-cautious.
On the other hand I'll get on my Harley and drive all over the country without a second thought so it is obvious that my personal "threat-meter" is broken (at least that's what I'm told)

 

Must be why the whistling sound when they walk!

 

I've used plates before to lift things and even though it worked, I never really trusted it. There are a lot of things to consider, but just about everyone has had some experience with something unexpected happening..........and then wishing they had done something different. To me the cost of a tilter is negligible and it makes things a lot easier when you have to change the angle of the dangle during mid-installation. Modifying it makes it more usefull for lifting things besides engines.......Removing and reinstalling a pick up bed supported with a tilter is much easier.
I especially never like using the plates with aluminum intakes. I was thinking carb bolts were smaller than 5/16 but its too late and cold to go check. Something I don't think anyone mentioned was that when you tilt the eng/tran units, that has an affect on loading and strength too. Then there are the occasional snaps and jerks that can happen. Given the value of many engines, it seems better to me to spend $30 bucks and have a stronger and more controllable installation tool than to fight and tug and push and jack to get an engine and tranny in place. Heck, these days its worth thirty dollars just to not have to bend over or get down on my knees again...........

There are all kinds of ways to remove engines......

 

@Old wolf ......it would be difficult to warp an FE intake with a wrecking ball!

Ray

 

I have a plate I made up years ago. I never liked using it although never had an issue with it. Now all I use is a HF engine leveler. I bolt it to the heads in the front and back using nylon washers so I don't mark the heads up. I can drop a SBC into place with the transmission installed without a problem.

 

Those light weight engine stands are what scare me!

I use one bolted to my overhead engine hoist, when I can.




Bones

 

Old time chain does it for me, fully adjustable, low risk.

 

The owners of the plates that did fail are not around case the engine fell on them

 

6Salley6, my answer to your question is, Nope you are not the only one !!!

 

I can’t think of a safer way to lift and engine than to use a plate. 4 bolts tightened against the intake so there is no shear load is way stronger than a bolt through a chain!! Now as for the Chinese welded plate, I might be afraid of their welds breaking. But the principle is far superior to the chain method. A single 5/16 eye bolt is rated to safely lift 1200lbs straight pull, but only 300 in shear!!

https://www.e-rigging.com/five-sixt...MIouOk86GC5wIVSb7ACh0hIATfEAQYAiABEgL2VvD_BwE

 

I dropped this in with the radiator support in place, just cranked the leveler. I did put an air ratchet on it to speed things up.

 

60-fuckin-2 years old, been around lifting engines since I was a kid. Perhaps some of the earliest I can remember I was 10 or 11 helping Dear ol Dad. Sometimes I'd get to run the forklift to do the pickin. Can't recall how many engine swaps, restorations, hot rod shit, too numerous to mention. I can raise a right hand to the fact I've NEVER used a carb plate. Never bought or built one, never felt the need. Always set the chain how I wanted it, sometimes even a wrap with a tow strap. Just me I guess. Never had it, never needed it, never bought it. Would it bug me? Yeah, as in "...who welded this that day? I hope he didn't have a fight with his ol lady or was out too long on bowling night..."

 

It's always looked a little spooky to me so I don't do it. To me it's the aluminum and its condition, not the bolts.
Pete

 

Never Have Had A Problem In 55 Years So Use A Secondary Chain For Safety And Mental Health...

 

This is like debating whether to pre-fill the oil filter after a change.

I can add this, take it FWIW, I'm sure it won't change any minds one way or the other.

We were pulling the SBC from my Brother in Laws PU (OT). I pulled the starter off and a few bolts on the BH, told him I was going to get a jack to put under the tranny, and for him to finish off the BH bolts.

I came back he said it was ready to pull.

Used the ForkLift with a stinger on the end, carb plate bolted to the CI intake. Tugged/pulled and couldn't get the engine out, he hopped onto the Forklift and started going animal with it, then a big "pop". he stopped, I got under the truck and a better look and see he left one BH bolt in. The "pop" the the TH350 BH cracking.

Don't know if Al threads would have taken the abuse or not, but the factory CI intake did.

 

I saw an engine being lifted in a junkyard... with a big v-belt looped around the exhaust manifolds picked up with a fork lift... Same yard I saw a heater core being removed from a car with a fireman's axe...

 

[QUOTE="Budget36, post: 13406392, member: 257791
We were pulling the SBC from my Brother in Laws PU (OT).
Used the ForkLift with a stinger on the end, carb plate bolted to the CI intake. Tugged/pulled and couldn't get the engine out, he hopped onto the Forklift and started going animal with it, then a big "pop". he stopped, I got under the truck and a better look and see he left one BH bolt in. The "pop" the the TH350 BH cracking.
Don't know if Al threads would have taken the abuse or not, but the factory CI intake did.[/QUOTE]


The thing is, when removing and installing engines things don't always go as planned. It can be mistakes made like the one you described, or it can be a hundred other variations of "what can go wrong". Most people learn by experience and along the way make a "few" misteps. Everyone can use the tool of thier choice and never have a problem, but I'm the one guy that WILL have a problem. "Murphy" has a permanent residence at my place. So experience has taught me to use tools that I know are overbuilt for the task when lifting something. Having 4 chain attachment points with the spreader bar insures that I have more than enuff capacity. The bolts attaching to the heads (or whatever) will not damage fuel lines or distributors and valve covers. If one of them ever broke I still have 3 chains supporting it.
Heres the point.......Those that have never used a tilter are happy with what they are doing already.
Those that have used an engine tilter have no desire to ever use a plate or chain again. That's the difference.
Its kinda like being happy dating Phyliss Diller and turning down a date with Angie Dickenson.....cause it costs a few bucks more.