I hope that there are some old-school hot-rodders out there that can help me with some information. I'm looking at a '37 Ford hot-rod that was built probably 30 years ago using some '50's era (maybe ?) speed parts. The car has Fenton intake, aluminum heads and some other vintage speed stuff on a '50s Mercury flathead. My question is that the car has a non-synchronized 3 speed in it, and the guy told me that it is either a Cadillac transmission or a Ford case with Cadillac gears in it. I don't know if this was ever really done, or if the trans is just worn out. Is anyone familiar with this set-up? Is (was) there such a thing? I would think that a Cadillac would have syncros in it unless it was really, really old. I'm not sure if I want to mess with having to double-clutch, and speed match gears to downshift with this type of tranny. Any information would be appreciated. I really like the car, but I don't want to get into something that I'll regret later. Thanks
I think various aspects of this story are inaccurate and likely remembered incorrectly. As for syncromesh gears, American passenger car and light truck 3 speed transmissions have had 2nd and 3rd syncronized since the early '30s at the latest. Certainly that is true of Ford. It was common to install Lincoln 'Zephyr' gears into Ford and Mercury trans cases as they have a slightly different gear tooth count that affects 2nd and 3rd gear ratios. Maybe the story teller has Cadillac confused with Lincoln as they both are/were luxury cars of the period. Cadillac transmissions from the late '30s were sometimes fitted to early Ford drivelines to gain a stronger transmission for highly souped up Ford engines. Or, more commonly, swapped in engines of greater power, such as Caddy, Olds, etc. Ray
You need to get us some pictures of the transmission, then we have a shot at identifying it. I highly doubt Cadillac gears would fit in a Ford case. Is the trans a side shift, or a floor shift? Is it an open driveline or torque tube?
Top loader with a torque tube. I don't have access to the car, as I haven't decided if I want to make an offer. We tried to look up under the car at the transmission, but it was hard to see. I know what a stock 3 speed looks like, but I couldn't get a good look at it.
True in part.......Caddy didn't build torque tube drivelines. But several open drive trannies have been adapted to torque tube Ford drivelines. Typically, the tail housing is removed, the output shaft shortened and resplined and the Ford rear mount/coupling and u-joint adapted to the trans. Most common for this modification 'back in the day', were Cad/Lasalle top shift gearboxes. Still, given the mention of the gear set swap, I think it more likely to be a Ford box with Lincoln gears. Ray
56bills, if you get back under the car just feel the bottom of the trans case. The Cad/Lasalle has a bolt on lower cover so if you feel a number of bolts around the lower edge its the Cad.
It could be one of these, maybe the facts have slightly faded through the years. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/x-shift-aluminum-trans-case.223047/
I have a Cad LaSalle trans adapted to Ford torque tube in my 34. As mentioned the Cadillac trans is a bottom loader and has a removable cover plate. The Cad gears will not fit in a Ford Case and are syncro 2nd and 3rd.
I thought I remembered that I had read about Cad gears in a Ford case, and I couldn't remember at first if I was mistaking Lincoln Zepher gear swaps, which were more common. I found the article that describes exactly how to modify the Caddy gears in the Caddy case to fit in the Hot Rod 1956 Annual. So you could have a Caddy box with the internals cut and matched to bolt up to the Ford, or Lincoln Zepher internals in a Ford box. Another popular tranny back then was the Packard. Bob
If you get near the car again; stick your phone under there and take a few pictures, you can usually get some good shots of stuff you wouldn't otherwise be able to see.
Thank you for the tips and information. I think that I'll make the guy an offer taking into account the fact that the trans will need to be replaced. Swapping out the box isn't too bad, I just didn't want to get involved in something that had heavy modifications done to it (that are hard to un-do), to accommodate the trans that is in there. I'm going to go with that the car probably has a Ford box with bad syncros. Should be easy to fix (if I can find a replacement box). Thanks again everyone!
An early Ford box has syncros in all gears except for 2nd down to 1st. You will get used to driving it in no time, and just use the brakes from 2nd to a stop. If it has a Packard (I think we dismissed a Cad box since you said it's a top loader and the Cads were bottom loaders), they were probably syncroed the same, but will be much stronger than the Ford. Even better!
Fords had syncros after '39, that's why everyone wants a '39 box, last year floor shift, first year synchros. Sounds to me like the car has the stock transmission and a lot of stories to go along with it.
There were syncros in the Ford transmissions before 39. Ford revised the design a bit for 39, but the pre-39 syncros worked just fine. None of them are built for speed shifting, though.
You may not have to replace the box, but, you will have to figure out which conglomeration of Ford trans parts you have. If you buy the car, get a book called "The Ins and Outs of Early Ford Transmissions" by Mac Van Pelt. It will help you figure out what you have and where you need to go. My opinion is that the greatest single performance improvement to a flathead is a T5 transmission, but that requires extensive modifications to the car. I am choosing to rebuild the trans in my avatar with 40/48 internals and install a Columbia rear instead.JHMO
My '32 AVATAR came from the factory with syncros. The '39 was just a slightly better design. Charlie Stephens
Don't jump to any conclusions, the trans may be fine. I found out long ago you can't go by what the seller says, they are usually wrong or lying. It probably has a plain Ford transmission. Back in the day some rodders did put Lincoln guts in a Ford transmission, they would fit, and the Lincoln had a lower second gear ratio which helped with drag racing. From memory the ratio was 2.6:1. This was the Lincoln Zephyr type, not the big Lincoln which was discontinued after 1940. Some hot rods also used a Cadillac/LaSalle transmission because it was so strong. This was a Warner transmission with nothing in common with the Ford, no parts would interchange. This trans was used with an open drive shaft as that is how it came in the Caddy. It was possible to adapt it to a Ford drive line but this was seldom done as it ran into some machine shop work which few rodders had access to. So, the seller has his stories mixed up somewhere. Odds are it is a plain Ford transmission.
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