Technical Beam axles, brakes, and track width. ( remember my rotor thread that got axed)

Don't get antsy here, there was a bunch of useful stuff there if you think a little bit.
Please don't even hint at M2 stuff.
Maybe if this is still here I'll give the solution to the problem, my last one was deleted and I'm trying again. If you guys don't want it that's fine I guess but I'm guessing some might.


Rhetorical questions with answers .
Why do they even make narrow axles ?
Because you need them if use a disc brake kit
Why do they make a disk brake kit ?
Because it's not a bad thing.
This kit is really popular, who's running it ?
Lots of people because it's easy and it works.


Who's had this problem ?
Thanks @Hyvolt for the pic.

Everyone who's ever bolted it on has the same problem, that's who.
This problem has a few work arounds.
The problem is several issues in one
jacked up scrub radius
Wider track width.
One work around is a narrow axle and that fixes 1/2 the problem eg fitment and looks.
The scrub radius issue needs to have FWD offset wheels to correct it, not cool on any car running that axle.

Enter the hybrid rotor design.
Report button is right down there

 

I assume you are trying to do this with bolt on parts, no machining?
Is the 5x4.5 lug pattern a must?
Have you looked at race car type brakes?

 

I'm surprised that no one has explored the use of late-model discs. A lot of newer cars and trucks (both front and rear WD and 4WD) use separate hub/rotors with little offset, maybe a custom or modified hub with a later rotor would work. But everybody wants cheap, so compromises are made....

 

What does a hybrid rotor look like?

 

What he said^^^^

 

He's working on it as we speak.
Shouldn't be too long!

 

It looks like this.






1/2 of the answers are in here.
http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/DataSheets/ds719.pdf

 

You never know Denny,

 

That all depends on the individual's current level of GIVEAFUCKS and BUCKS
With a SMALLGIVEAFUCKS and EXTRABUCKS it could be no machining parts.
With EXTRAGIVEAFUCKS and SMALLBUCKS it could be some machining.

Either way you'll wind up with the ability to fit a genuine Henry ford axle, and have a way better driving car. That in itself saves being forced into paying big bucks for $25.00 Chinese axle.

 

Reason I asked about the wheel lug pattern......if you could use the stock early ford hub, you may be able to find a "hat" type rotor to slide over it, as mentioned above.
I did exactly that with my Hudson solid axle...retains stock track width.

 

2wd Toyota pickups, at least the middle-aged ones, have 5-on-4-1/2" slip-on rotors. I think that they are 10-1/2"

 

There aren't many if any videos that cover scrub radius that use a close king pin set up like a early ford beam and I'm not making one. The closest video example would be a 4x4 solid axle because the pivots are close and there's no other movements.
The principal is exactly the same same. The effect are exact the same same too.

On the ford axle the lines shown would be directly thru the center of the king pin and directly thru the center of the rubber tire.
You want some Scrub radius either positive or negative. You don't want zero scrub because steering will feel loose and will have an oscillating effect on the loads. Squirrelly steering would best describe a car with zero scrub radius. You also don't want more than 2" scrub radius, steering will feel heavy and result in having a car that wants to dart when the natural forces combine with your steering wheel Input while negotiating curves or braking. Especially braking in curves and cornering maneuvers even road irregularities. (Ever drive with one wheel on the smooth road and the other on the scarification surface)


Each one of these covers the same info but each one has at least one neat nugget of info the others don't. Understanding this will help you get the toe set right. The larger the scrub radius the more static toe measuments you need. The more toe you need will increases the natural consequence of scrub radius. Vicious spiral. If you get that the light bulb should be going on and shining brightly.

 

Would you look at how nice, clean and simple that is
I bet its several pounds lighter too helping with the un sprung weight issues too.
When unsprung weight is already insurmountable problem, the last thing you'd want to do is make it worse. Fighting to shave ounces doesn't matter much, but if you can drop a bunch of ugly pound that easy it's better to do it.
This should kill a few birds with one stone huh?

 

Great info . I have learn the hard way also that I am better off starting from scratch and designing my own parts than some of the one size fits all kits I have come across. It also helps to work Sundays at a "old school" NAPA that still has al kinds of wonderfull old catalogs with all kinds o specs and measurements . This store dates back to the 40's and so does a lot of the catalogs! Besides I get parts a 10% over cost . I really enjoy your post , always a lot of great info and inspiration. Larry

 

Wonder if it is possible to re-drill the bolt circle on an early Ford(or F100) hub? Or is the center"snout" too big?

 

The only way you know if you can re drill anything for sure is to have it in your hands.
I have a couple of those hubs around here but I can't find them. At least they didn't bite me in the ass while I was glancing around for them.

 

I over think stuff. It's not for everyone. But after we build it right we can talk about what color to paint it.

 

I've re drilled f-1 hubs with small ford pattern before

 

The Speedway or ECI brake kit that uses the F-150 rotor/GM caliper is slightly narrower than the original Ford drum brakes.

The kits that have the 4-3/4" and 4-1/2" bolt circles are about an inch wider per side.

Don't know how if that is meaningful in this discussion; but it is an interesting to know if you want to run an original Henry Ford axle and fenders.

 

I used a magnum kit on my roadster, no scrub.....wheels (14 inch) fit over the rotors.

 

Every car has a "scrub radius" and yours is positive.
It (scrub radius) appears to be much less than some examples too.
Nice car.

 

Sure is very meaningful.

Also From ECI at $600 with a hub and a hat.
I'm guessing rmr&c doesn't have that kind of scratch in his set up, even if he had to buy all the parts.

The thing to look for is the length of the cone beyond the wheel mounting surface for a quick visual.
And the height of the "hat". Rotor face to wheel mounting surface. this is pretty good, but the bracket looks flat and mounts to the front of the spindle. A bracket that mounts to the backside if the spindle or has a jog like the heavy cast bracket moves things further in and better yet. Plus if you were a crafty fella it's easier to make a 18 ga dust shield that looks like a backing plate and cover it up.

 

I used rotors from a '90's Explorer 4x4. Offset and center index hole size was perfect. Just needed slightly longer wheel studs.
Not saying this combo will work for anyone else, but the same type setup may be possible with different parts.

 

I have this kit on my 41. It works really well. I haven't measured it, but it actually brought the wheels in about 1/2" each side. Plus I get to keep my stock 16" rims. Speedway says you need to get wheels designed for disc brakes, but the 16" drum wheels clear the calipers. This is Speedways kit #91031909 and it is only $320. You do need to add the residual valve.

 

Thanks vick, it handles like it's on rails, steers with one finger, no bump steer, rides nice, now for more power...

 

Let me understand or not. I have only skimmed the thread but my understanding is that a hybrid rotor is integral hub and rotor correct? Do they have to be a ventilated rotor? The reason I ask is that I have some Avanti rotors that are integral but not ventilated.

I get the idea of narrowed axles to maintain original track width which would but important on a fender car, but the wider track width on the front is a benefit in some instances. A wider track width in the front than the rear will help the car track straighter at speed and have less tendency to bull dog in the corners. At least that's been my experience.

 

Increasing track width and stability. ,,, depends how it's done.

Growing the wheel offset (decreasing back space) or pushing out the wheel mounting surface be it with different hubs, rotors or adapters ,,,, anyone of those ways increases "scrub radius". Here comes the IF parts. If you didn't have enough scrub radius then adding some helps handling. If you have just the right amount or too much SR then adding some will begin to hurt. If SR is too much adding more hurts more, like throwing salt in an open wound.

Spreading the pivots to increas track width gets things done differently.

Increasing track width by spreading wheel mounting surfaces then bringing the track width back in with a narrow axle is a BIG business that wastes money, gives piss poor end results. Creating a problem, then sell you a solution. They give you bulshit and tell you it's ice cream

 

But narrowing to compensate for the hubs doesn't change that does it. The pivot point in relation to the tire center is still the same. Perhaps my logic is bad here.

 

Exactly and your logic is good,

Something must be getting lost in translation.

 

these kind of posts are awesome, love learning stuff like this. would have never considered a disc swap messing with the front geometry like that. something I will have to consider when doing our 47 pickup.
thanks!