Technical Fe water pump question

Does anybody know when the c2ae pump ended and the C4ae pump began I'm looking for one that has a casting date of October of 63 . I'm not sure which casting I need to be hunting . If anybody knows where one is that would be good also

 

My guess is that an October car could have had either one.

 

Must be a serious as all hell restoration.
If you have the "correct pump casting" now but it needs to be rebuilt there are rebuild kits available and it isn't exactly rocket science to rebuild one. You do need a good press though. There are rebuilders that will rebuild your pump and send it back.

 

I have a C2AE, but I can't tell you for certain what year of car it came off, but I think it was on my 67 Merc truck. It wasn't painted, so I am almost positive it was replaced before I bought the truck in 1983, when lots of the older cores would have still been in circulation.
The pump is hooped, and to keep the case, I was planning to replace the guts with the guts from a newer, serviceable, water pump.
I have some other cores here, but think they are all later castings.
Bob

 

In Ford parts the letter is the decade C being the 60's the number following is the year produced C4 being 1964

 

If I had one I would rebuild it but I dont

 

Bob what is the casting date on the c2

 

The c number is the engineering number not the casting date

 

The c is the decade number
C 1960
D 1970
E 1980
F 1990 the number following the letter is the year
C4 1964
D7 1977
E8 1988

 

This is correct
Bob

 

Casting date differs from engineering number: he'll be looking for a casting date of Kx3 (October (x = # for date) of '63 or Jx3 (Sept. (x = # for date) '63 or Hx3 (August (x = # for date) '63), or maybe back into July (Gx3) to be correct for date (Ford skipped "I" for month code to avoid confusion with "1"). C4- castings were started in late spring-early summer '63 in order to stockpile for '64 production (and sometimes used in late-built '63 engines).
I've been researching water pumps for Vintage Thunderbird Club International judging/authenticity guides for some time along with related items, and am actually trying to compile dimensions and spotting features for '58-'60s FE castings like water pumps. I assume big visual difference between C2AE and C4AE pumps is the length/angle of the inlet neck? I at least documented this difference between '62 C2AE and C4SE (T-bird) pumps, with the '62 neck being shorter. '62 and '64 full-size cars used generators ('64 was last year for them); not sure if a different pump was used for the optional Autolite alternator setup, but suspect there wasn't a change in the casting for mounting the brackets for the generator/alternator (on the passenger side of the pump) or the power steering pump (on the inlet neck). The C4SE pump should interchange, but it was set up for the 'Bird's alternator mounting parts. Would be interesting to know what length of pump is from mounting face of block to face of mounting flange for the fan and if this differed as well (probably not for full-size application). (Yeah, I'm a geek when it comes to things like this.)

 

The pump is in my LTS, a very elegant name for my "attractive" junk pile. I am going to have to dig for it, and will attempt to do that today or tomorrow.
Bob

 

I just assumed that the casting possibly had been changed to accommodate the new position of some new accessory on some car model. I never bothered to check the pumps closely, and to me at first glance, they looked the same as the later pumps. I have 5 FE engines, 1 360, 2 390 (335hp), 2 428s, and have a reason to keep good castings.
Bob

 

So do you think the October pump would be a c4. Do you know where one could be had

 

Ok thanks for looking Bob

 

I have not had the opportunity to look through everything yet. I am in the middle of working on the back door of my Astro van, because of an electrical problem inside the switch or the door. I spent all day on it, and still have not had success with finding the correct schematic. I am at the point where I am taking everything apart to identify the wiring.
I will attempt to look tomorrow.
Bob

 

More than likely, yes. With that being said, however, taking some time to dig through period Master Parts Catalogs, Master Parts Cross-Reference books for Engineering and Parts & Accessories (P&A) Numbers to find the casting's engineering and corresponding P&A number, plus looking for Obsolete-Supersede-Interchange (OSI) books to see if the older C2AE- pump was superseded by the C4AE- one, would be needed in order to determine applications and when phased in (or out) for a more-definitive and informed answer.
IT IS IMPORTANT that you give the entire engineering casting number including the suffix (in this case C2AE and C4AE) along with the suffix (a letter) that follows the basic number for the casting, in this case 8505. There could be two or more similar-designed pumps that use the C2AE and C4AE prefixes - typically when a part was revised in design, it was assigned a new suffix if released during the model/design year. From my research, the '62-designed water pump body has C2AE 8505-A for an engineering casting number: the pump assembly P&A # was C2AZ 8501-A - this crosses with engineering number C2AE 8501-A. This was used on '62-'63 full-size Fords and Mercurys with 352, 390, 406 and 427s and had a dowel pin for the generator bracket application. For 1964 352-390s, P&A # C4AZ 8501-B has engineering number C4AE 8501-B and also used a dowel pin for the generator mounting bracket - without seeing one in person, I'm assuming the casting number on the pump body is C4AE 8505-A. If the car had an alternator (which was standard for the 427s if I remember correctly), the pump assembly had the engineering number C4SE 8501-A/P&A # C4AE 8501-A pump, in which case the pump body casting probably had an engineering casting number C4SE 8505-A.
As for where to find one, you'll have to do your own sleuthing - place parts-wanted ads in specialty places like the FE Forum, contact vendors like Perogie Enterprises and similar that specialize in restoring FE-engine cars like Cobras, Shelby Mustangs, hipo-engined Galaxies, etc., along with used '58-'60s T-bird parts vendors like The Bird Nest, T-bird Ranch, Thunderbird Connection and others (check www.vintagethunderbirdclub.net for a list of vendors that advertise in VTCI's magazine, "Thunderbird Scoop"). Specify that you're looking for a used '64 T-bird water pump core with a date code earlier than 3K8 and MAYBE they might have a core lying around. And, no, I don't have one for sale at this time.

 

Thanks for looking when you get a chance

 

My car is a 427 generator car that's is what is confusing on this pump search. I've contacted perogie fmp galaxie performance and every pump builder I can find nobody has one Thanks for the info

 

I found the pump. It is a C2AE
casting 8505 A
Casting date 3E24
Bob

I edited the posting because I had a difficult time reading the casting number in the low light.

 

Thanks for looking Bob I wish it was one I could use

 

No problem, good luck finding one.
Bob

 

Wow, you're as bad as I am.. I have a 352, a 360, a 390, a 410, and two 428's sitting in the engine room...

Hey, 951le.. I'll look and see what I have tomorrow for you..

 

Here is some excellent information on FE engines from the Ford interchange book. There is a sample of the book with some interesting tidbits relating to water pump and other castings.
Bob

http://www.tbirdgarage.com/Site_2/FE_INFO.html

 

Yeah, and I am a Chevy guy. (That doesn't count the 429 and the 460)
Bob

 

Thanks for looking jb

 

Thanks bob I will check it out

 

Shit.. I forgot all about looking for you... but I'll be out in the garage tomorrow and I'll write myself a note right now...

 

Reading with interest , Did Ford not Offer a High volume Pump there in the Mid 60's for the 390 and would that be a Different #? 2nd part of Question If there was not a Version change would or did Ford Sometimes carry over as and Example the C4 Tranny?

 

Chiss,
This bit from the Ford Interchange book will describe in detail the FE water pumps. My understanding is, that the core is the same, and the innards are different for the high volume pump. The part I find interesting, is the statement that all the new innards are the high volume type units. It would make sense, if you are a rebuilder. It would lower the inventory cost.
Bob
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Big-block Fords enjoy greater simplicity when it comes to water pumps. The 352/360/390/406/427 and 428 use two basic water pump types - standard and high-flow. That’s it. The standard water pump is a D0AZ-8501-D piece, and it fits every type of “FE” big-block known. Because you’re into high performance, you’re going to want the C5AZ-8501-S high-flow water pump originally conceived for all 390, 406, 427 and 428 high performance big-blocks. It is our belief that all “FE” water pumps sold today are the high-flow type.



The high-flow water pump for the "FE" series engines. This casting number is C9AE-9505-A, which is the water pump casting number, not the assembly part number.Don’t be alarmed if your replacement water pump has a C9AE-8505-A casting number. This is the casting number for the water pump housing, not the water pump assembly, which is “8501.” There are also aftermarket castings void of Ford casting numbers which will add to this confusion.
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