Technical Question 390 FE Ford wrong lifters?

I have a 1961 390 in a 58 Ford. I actually built the engine 20 years ago and it has been in storage. I pulled the pan and heads to check things out and put in new gaskets. Have it in the car now, pulled #1 plug to find tdc to install the distributor,,,,NO compression. Pulled all the plugs,,none. All the valves move up and down fine. I loosen the rockers and it has compression, tighten them down, no compression. I have read that 302 lifters fit, but are taller than 390s. Could I have the wrong lifters? Anybody have the dimensions on the 2? Also,,I heard 390s had different length push rods, but I used the same push rods from the engine, just replaced the lifters, back when I built the engine. I am baffled, any help? If the lifters are too long, I would like to just use shorter push rods, if the measurements make that possible. I hate to pull the intake again.

 

Did you just build Oil Pressure using a drill motor? With all the plugs out can you hand turn the motor 4 full revolutions? If yes to both questions then I would spin the motor on the starter with plugs out till the lifters drop to proper self adjust height. You probably just pumped the lifters up further than run position while priming the system.
The Wizzard

 

Ford made .060 longer and shorter pushrods for the FE . You compress the hyd lifter and measure the gap between the rocker tip and valve stem. and install the approate length pushrods to meet the desired spech. Some tuners would shim the rocker stands. And some FE's have adjustable rocker arms

 

Get the pushrod length gauge and check or get a used set of adjustable rockers. It sounds like the lifters pushed it out of adjustment.

 

I know the 302 and 390 have different part numbers but I didn't find any dimension of pushrod cup location. Sorry I'm not much help.

 

Sounds to me as if you used a solid lifter in place of a hydraulic . Hydraulics have a large range of "gap" that would allow for adjustment , only issue is only gifted FEs had adjustable rockers

 

Post #2....Only difference in 302 and 390 lifters is that 302 can feed oil up the push rod and 390 not...So 302 ok...Like in post #2 rotate it some and let it sit some..Some lifters take a while to bleed down and some you have to take out and take apart and put back in empty and start the engine..

 

Shim the rocker stands. Your pushrods will work fine.

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FE,s have a stamped steel oil director between the rocker supports and cyl head. its about .040 thick. Leave that out and it might cause problems?

 

Was the block or heads decked or shaved when you rebuilt it? this will effect push rod length. I have run into this before. I use after market adjustable push rods and set lash accordingly. I love the FE motors but they can be a little funky in the valve train department.

 

YES!!! I did use a drill, had a pressure gauge hooked up and pumped it pretty good. Once initially and then pumped it up again while spinning the engine over with the starter. I put the rockers and valve covers temp back on Sat. and gave up for the weekend, but will pull the covers again today and check. I kept thinking that I pumped the lifters up too hard, but I figured the engine/pump would do the same thing, so kinda ignored that idea at first. But, that does make sense. I will post back here what I find. Thanks a bunch.

 

Thanks,,,I am going to check the lifter bleed and see if they settled down.

 

I thought about shimming, but the one stand per side has the big opening for oil feed. Am checking the lifter bleed down as suggested earlier. Thanks.

 

On the FE you can see some of the lifters through the intake shine a light at them and see how far the plunger is below the retainer slip on a cylinder with the valves closed.

 

Over filling lifters at high R.P.M's back in the 60's led to Rhodes developing the "New" anti pump lifters with larger bleed off holes and heaver internal springs to eliminate exactly what may or may not be your problem. Good luck.
The Wizzard

 

There's two different rocker stand heights for the FE; 'short' and 'tall'. I don't remember actual heights, but there's about 1/8" difference. Combine 'short' stands where you need 'tall' with non-adjustable rockers and that could be your problem...

 

I checked now and the push rods are still tight. I backed off all 4 bolts on the right bank 1/2 turn and now the push rods spin by hand. If it is a lifter bleed down issue, can I start it and let it run for a very short time with the rocker bolts loose to see if the lifters settle down. I know it will pump oil out around the rocker stand and not oil the rockers, but thought I would give that a try before pulling the intake. Also....thanks for the tip on the rocker stands, I will look into that.

 

I would Definatly Not do that. The rocker arm action on loose 3/8 bolts could easily give you broken bolts at the head level.

 

Sounds like you really know your stuff...don't suppose I could get you to call me? If so, I will send my number

 

I have several loose rocker arm units. I'll get you some stand height numbers after lunch. Also another thing to do is check with Smith push rods and see if they have adjustable push rods for your motor. Could be an easy solution.
The Wizzard

 

I keep thinking that it is the lifters not bleeding down. I had 2 out on Saturday. After some effort, I was able to move one maybe a 1/16", the other one would barely move at all. The engine has been in storage for many years, but I can't imagine all 16 lifters would be stuck,,,no sign of moisture anywhere inside. Could I put some very thin flat washers under the stands enough to fire it up to see if the lifters mellow out?

 

Yes go ahead and shim the stands with flat washers. fire it up and let it run 30 minutes. Cant hurt anything. my gut feeling is you got some kinda lifter problem.

 

Okay, 58 adjustable rocker stands are 2.170 tall. 64 Hyd stands are 2.190 tall and 66 Hyd stands are 2.205 tall. The oil deflector is .040 thick. I also know you can get several length push rods from Ford for the FE motors. Not knowing anything about your rebuild or Quality of, I will throw this out. When grinding Valves and seats the free length of the valve stem gets longer. In motors with adjustable rockers there is room for some adjustment. In FE motors grinding the valve stem top is a must do step and often missed so there in could be your problem. Don't groan to much yet. You can check that out without removing the heads.
The Wizzard

 

First step to check this out is to remove the rocker unit and with a Quality strait edge lay it across the Valve stems. If they all touch exactly the same that's good. To know if the free length is correct you will need to remove a valve spring. You do that by air charging a Cyl to hold up the valve then remove the spring. Motors manual will have valve stem length in spec's. If that all checks out measure push rod length and make sure they are as recomended. Maybe checking push rods first would be a good idea. Also surfaced heads and block need to be taken into consideration. It all adds up.
The Wizzard

 

I did shim the rocker stands (roughly .050) and it fired right up...sounded good until the carb started overflowing. Worked on that seemingly forever and still having a problem, so I never had it running long enough to further investigate the lifter/push rod/valve issue. I was hoping to run it for 15-20 minutes, warm it up good and let it set overnight. If the lifters seem to bleed off, I would remove the shims and see if it is OK. While removing the shims, I could check those valve stem heights as you say. Someday,,,if anyone has a half hour to read a post, I can give the history of this engine...it is totally crazy how this all came about. Like Deja Vu or Carma or something bizarre.

 

This ********* engine! Last weekend I hooked up a small electric fuel pump, took care of the carb overflow. I left those .050 shims under the rockers. I ran it for probably 20 minutes off and on, sounded great. Never touched it all week, so went in today and removed the shims, hoping that if it was a lifter bleed problem, they would have settled down. Zero compression again. Put the shims back in, still zero. Changed push rods to some others I had here, really have no way to accurately measure them because of the different tips,,,still zero compression. I can order new push rods in a few different lengths, so am going to order the shortest. But wondering, am I still having a lifter problem? I thought I knew these engines, but I am totally stumped.

 

Are you positive you have Hyd lifters and not solid lifters?

 

Yes, they are hydraulics

 

The rocker arm tips are riding to the outer edge of the valve stems,,,does that tell anything? I just can't understand how it ran great last weekend with the shims and now I am back to zero compression with/without the shims.