I just purchased a 50 chrysler with an l-head (251 ci) 6. Anybody know anything i should about these motors? ANy good books? How bout speed parts? Thanks
I have an L-head 8. No problems thus far to report. And haven't heard too many horror stories to watch out for. As far as speed, I know there are a few and far between dual carb manifolds for the 8, so I imagine the same for the 6. Have seen headers for the 6 as well. THe biggest thing is trying to find them - as I said few and far between. Me I'll probably do these upgrades, but make them myself. Been searching for a good two years.
Mopar flat 6's come in two basic varieties. 23 1/2 in blocks in various displacments from 198 to 230, common to Dodge, Dodge light duty trucks, and Plymouth cars and trucks. The Chrysler and Desoto versions are 25 inch blocks in displacements from 228 to 265. these were also used in industrial,commercial, agricultural, and marine applications. Good sources are Clarke airport tugs, and Massey Ferguson/Harris grain combines (Cockshutt in Canada) Also most Canadian manufactured Chrylser cars and trucks are the longer block version and their displacements go from 218 to 265. So you are endowed witha long block version and though speed parts like HC heads and intakes are out there they are specific to the block length. These are long stroke engines that don't like a lot of reves but they make their maximum torque at 1600 RPMS. Check out the info and forum at; http://www.p15-d24.com for good general mopar flat head info, and http://www.imperialclub.com/ for info specific to the 25 inch blocks. Also there is a fellow outside of Pittsburg, Pa. who makes split intakes, split exhausts, and is a fount of info on mopar 6 cylinder engines. Send me a private message for his particulars. Simple straight forward engine with a deserved reputation for reliability and trouble free operation, trouble spots are engine electrical relating to the M-6 semi automatic transmission, and deterioriating internal coolant distribution tube, and head gaskets problems related to restricted flow caused by tubes in bad shape. You can also get some good information in the engine history section of http://www.allpar.com I am currently running a 56 230 cu in Plymouth engine in a 46 Plymouth Biz Coupe. I am running dual carbs, on a Fenton intake, with 30 over pistons and 40 combo off the head and block, this has proved to be a nice combination with suprising throttle response between 40 and 60 mph in high gear. If yer running a flathead, how cum yer plugs are slanted??????
Thats a lot of info. thanks guys. ANother one, what about the transmission. i understand that there were two standard in 50, how do i tell which is which? and are they any good?
Another can of worms. You unless you have a straight 3 speed which was probably a rare option are equipt with an M-6 semi automatic (aka clunk a matic) This is a dual range two speed affair with a fluid coupling and a clutch. The clutch is only used for selecting reverse or either of the drive ranges. Again check the AllPar site for info on this tranny. They work off a throttle position sensor (strictly mechanical) a governor, a solenoid, and an igniton interupter. So you select lo ( good for about 30 mph) or hi (good for all speeds) range by using the gear selector lever, which is like a three on the tree with the 1st gear position blocked out. Then you release the clutch and drive away, at about 14 mph you lift your foot off the gas, wait till the mechanical and electrical stuff does its schtick, listen for the audible "clunk" and then push down on the gas again, you're now in highway gear. At the next stop light, you just brake to a stop, allowing the car to idle agains the fluid drive and the brake (the idle is set at about 400 rpms) then drive off when the light changes, accelerating to 14 mph, releasing the gas pedal listen for the clunk etc. Low works the same way except the shift should happen at a bout 8 MPH. Yea they are slow, yep they are difficult to get adjusted to work right, yes you need to retain all the carb eand electric stuff, and yes they are virtually bullet proof and in lo range nearly unstoppable. Again the Imperial site has a great section of these trannies, repairing and adjusting them. Definately not hot rod stuff but in good mechanical condition a trouble free drive train.
I've got a '53 Chrysler Windsor with tthe 265" (264.5"actually) flat six with the fluiddrive (gag). Even if I hop it up a 318 would leave it in the dust so I do not believe I'll be keeping it for long. I've never found any speed parts for it but at Goodguys Charlotte show this past October there was a fellow (I didn't get his name) who had a '50 Plymouth with the flattie. He had one of the cam companies regrind his cam and as for the intake and exhaust he fabricated. He cut a steel flange plate with holes for both the intake ports and the exhaust ports. Since these engine have 6 exhaust ports he welded a header tube to the flange plate and ran them 3 and 3 into a collector. For the intake (there are only 3 intake ports) he welded a tube for each port to the flange. These tubes were bent upwards and he welded a flange to each pipe on which was bolted a Stromberg 2bbl (flathead Ford). This gave him 3 carbs, one for each port. Talk about being a truly traditional rodder!!! It seemed to run strong! I think this is probably the best way to do a truly effective intake/exhaust since speed equpment is so rare and sometimes costly. In his Mopar book Tex Smith states he found a finned aluminum head for these Chrysler-DeSoto sixes and had a photo or two....RARE! My '53 Mopar Parts List (book) shows the same bellhousing number for the Plymouth/Dodge flattie 6 and the Chrysler/DeSoto six. I trust this means if you find a plymouth with a standard three speed the whole deal should bolt to your engine. Clutch linkage will need some fabbing since the fork on the fluid drive is further back than on the non-fluid drive. Then there's the need of a longer driveshaft. But after this it should rock & roll a tad better. Me, I'm hunting a good 400/440 big block and Torqueflite for mine. Best of luck to you, I think these are great (albeit underrated) cars to rod.....extremely well built and appointed and no bigger than the Olds's and Buicks I see at meets.
Stupid me............I just got through cruising some other threads and whammo..........there it was. BloodyKnuckles is the HAMBer with the setup I just described, he has pics on his post: check it out!!!!!!!!!!!
That's me! Thanks for the nice digs. I love my flat 6. It has been extremely reliable. I drive the hell out of this car. I am leaving the 10th of April to Las Vegas for VLV and I'm driving it. What I have done has made it a fun vehicle. I recommend you search and search and search. Thats what I did to get the info I needed. But don't hesitate to ask any questions because I beat this board up for a long time trying to get info. These guys are great! Here are a few pics: BloodyKnuckles
I'm gonna spit out some info ---the WWII Dodges used the 230(some 218) the Dodge M37 also used the 230 until 1968? the Canadian M37 used the 251. If you happen to be near a military surplus yard or run across one of these vehicles you might get some parts.some vehicles are $$$$(I've got 3) but you might find parts cheap,also they have 4 sp. trans (truck type) that are divorced from the transfer case.The Vintage Power Wagon site is a good source for parts also.Hope this helps someone--
couple more links; www.inliners.org and www.50plymouth.com Moose on here is the guy fab'ing the tube manifold/header setups. Check out 51Ratt/Shag's car if you get the chance. I really enjoy the 230 Dodge in my '50 Wayfarer. Dual carbs (Offy intake) and a split manifold REALLY made a difference. I have a finned head, cam and dual points for it eventually, and am working on the t5 conversion right now. As with any engine, compression and breathing are the key areas to making power. These Mopars respond really well to compression increases, and, like I said, Mine was surprisingly better with intake/exhaust.
my 52 plymouth with the flathead was the best running car i have ever owned. hopefully my 51 will be also.
I have some speed parts for the chrysler/desoto six,it happens to be a dual carb and exhaust manifolds that were a factory option for the big dodge trucks that used the big six. I doubt I will be using them as I sold the 50 chrysler I had to concentrate on other projects so they will be for sale or trade,if your 50 has the fluid drive it can be changed to a regular 3 speed from a plymouth or dodge as I was told it will bolt on and only modification needed is the crossmember that goes under the bellhousing to mount it needs to be moved forward some as the fluid drive has a longer bellhousing. Jeff
Amen to that, brother. Look at a Chiltons or Motors manual that shows HP ratings; see how the HP jumped with just a change from really low compression to moderate CR. -bill
yep- my '50 230 with 7.1 cr was rated at 103 hp, in '59 the 230 with 8.0 cr was rated at 135 hp. That's basically a 30% increase. There were carb and cam changes I'm sure that make a difference, but a 30% increase with only one point of compression increase is substantial. I have read somewhere that a dual intake and dual exhaust is supposed to net about the same increase, so imagine a 103 hp engine with dual intake and exhaust, a typical aluminum head with 9.0 to 1 cr, a mild cam and better ignition. You should easily expect 150 hp or more, a 50% increase. That's impressive.
Am I glad to see there are other Chrysler Flathead guys out there. I have gotten a ton of infromation from all the posts. I have owned a 41 Chrysler Windsor for many years, runs great althought its sure no ball of fire with its Fluid Drive. Plan on driving it from Ohio to Pueblo, CO. this summer. Have the original 41 Chyrsler factory shop manual if anyone needs any infor from it just let me know.
None of you guys told me what a pain in the ass drivetrain removal is on that damn car. Engine out the front, trans out the back? !?! I new there was a reason ive been avoiding chryslers. It is one of the automatics, but all the parts are there so im gonna try and make it work with the clunk-o. Anybody ever rebuilt one of these? Looks to be just a standard transmission with some shifting solenoids and sensors.
Yup, and it's all cast iron, nice, light and easy to remove. Seriously, I'll have to hunt through my stuff to find the original '53 shop manual. Essentially you are right about it being a standard. I'm relying on memory here so most of it should be right but..... Chrysler based this on their 3 speed manual with O/D. On the M6 fluid drive they eliminated first gear so you had 2nd and 3rd. They had a pump (I think) in it that built up pressure as your speed increased. When you let off the gas, the pump moved a piston inside that put it in "O/D" so to speak. The wires that go up by the carb interrupt the ignition circuit when you floor it causing it to "kickdown". What would be 2nd gear on the column is a low range with 2 speeds, while 3rd on the column is your high range with two speeds. My old glovebox owners manual said this latter position was for most all normal driving. Basically making sure all the wiring is good and the seals and stuff in the trans are good pretty much covers it. If I can find my old shop manual, I'll PM you and see about getting photocopies to you (no scanner here, I use the $ for the cars). Good Luck!!
I've done all this stuff to my 230. 9:1 compression EDGY head, dual intake and exhaust, HEI ignition, 3/4 cam, etc. And the difference now from the tired old 218 with busted compression rings on all six pistions, is night and day... With the '55 dodge overdrive three speed, it will cruise all day long at 70mph and get 19 mpg. I drove the car daily last summer, putting 3,500 miles on it with no problems other than a defective new fuel pump which ended my trip to Speed Week in the car 70 miles from home. This year it'll be there... There's a list of suppliers for the stuff I used on my engine on my site, http://50plymouth.com, along with lots of pics of my engine, etc. Even sound clips there too. I'd love to find a chassis dyno to see what the engine is really doing, to compare to the stock specs... Pete
Try old jeeps-- CJ2A had the L-R lugs as well as Dodges & Plymouths up into the 60's --I think. Funny story---get drunk--go to the parking lot and find your wheel gone and the lug nuts!!! No problem--(unless you forget the lugs are L-R) take lugs from the other wheels and spend a 1/2 hr trying to get the left lugs to screw onto the right side--- We were very drunk and it was very dark & very cold and we were very young--good news we were sober by the time we got it fixed.Haven't thought about that in a while
The Chrysler is the one to have. Years ago my dad put a chrysler into a 50 dodge truck. The little dodge engine kept eating rod bearings. Trouble disappeared. I've often thought of getting one of the 25" long motors just for old time sake.
I dont normally ask opinions of other, cause its my car dammit, but this is a tough decision and i need some input. when i bought my car, the guy gave me another motor with it, that had been running in another car, and told me it was a dodge. at the time it didnt mean anything to me, this being my first chrysler and all. the motor that was in the car has been open for 30+ years and is missing 2 rods and pistons. my dilemma is this: i think it would look strange to have a dodge motor in a chrysler, not to mention the smaller (230 ci) displacement. i have enough early small block parts to put together a running motor and an automatic, but it just doesnt seem right either. i am doing this on a limited (no) budget so if i do anything it has to be real cheap. what do you guys think? dodge flathead, small block, or .....? thanks
$.02- don't put the Dodge six or a small block Chevy in it. Keep the big six or put a different Mopar V8 mill in it.
99.8% of people who look at your car will never realize that it's not a Chrysler motor. It's not like the Dodges have a giant "Dodge" on the head. If you have tthe motor already, bolt it in and drive the thing. It doesnt have to be a perminent change.
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