Technical Engine builders: Why is my new 322 breaking rockers?

DND, Rich,
Both of you have had some great suggestions and recommedations. Here's a little backgound. I paid to have have this motor machined and do the assembly. The latter because I was picking my battles to get the car on the road quickly and assuming they have built a fair amount of vintage motors and have ammassed a lot of experience, they would probably catch something I might overlook. I bought the kit from Falcon, less cam and lifters and push-rods, and other than the springs the rest of the stuff seemed pretty nice for a stock rebuild. I clued them into every unique thing, horror stories I had heard about the early nailheads, most of which Russ Martin has on his site, and the old Street Rod articles, So this came as somewhat of a surprise and after asking them a few questions and I didn't seem to getting much in terms of suggestions. So why not enlist the HAMB to help figure it out, and share the information along the way so the next guy can use this as a resource.

I'm more set-up to fab cars than build motors, When it comes to inside mic's, spring checkers, lathes etc, I can get access to, or can borrow, and it will take more time, or may have to be improvised, or in some cases error on the safe side.

This has interesting to diagnose, and in the end will de-bunk some myths about these motors, components, suppliers etc.

Carry on.

 

"There's a kind of hush all over the world tonight"

 

Hermans Hermits ??
dave

 

Not much left to talk about, its fixed. And no SBC lifters were harmed...

 

Been watching this thread for a while but didn't have anything to contribute so stayed out of the way until the issue was found.

Glad the OP seems to have gotten it worked out. For anyone seeing this thread in the future try Ross Racing Engines for a more extreme nailhead build. Apart from having racing experience that goes back several decades they specialize in all vintage engines and put my '55 322 together. They have rebuilt many nailheads, early and later (401, 425 etc). When it had like 40 miles on it we drive to TX and back for 3K miles without an issue. Angry sounding engine which I am sure anyone that has heard it can attest. Many parts were custom manufactured. They are not cheap but I think it has to be pretty up there in terms of what a 322 can deliver, power-wise.

 

I must have missed what the fix was?

 

My bad, teaches me to reply without checking back through posts. I saw the post above "Not much left to talk about, its fixed." from falcongeorge and figured it had been resolved.

 

Whew!! I thought the cheese done fell off my cracker. I could'nt figure out what the fix was either. I'll keep watching.

 

See what you started ?
Hoodlum

 

I believe this is what George was calling the fix I could be wrong, so correct me if I'm wrong.

 

uh yea, inners stacking up solid .040 short of full lift usually tends to cause valvetrain problems... Should we re-test with a sbc solid lifter, just to make sure this could cause rocker breakage?

 

Oh no........... here we go again!

 

And the fricken saga continues guys.....
Today I received the springs from Russ.
I think he may have overlooked the inner spring OD. It measures .956 versus .903 and will NOT seat into the head pocket.



The outer springs have a little taller free length.
.
Notice the Falcon ODs are not to spec as well. This helps explain why the retainers mat not have been sitting flush.



Time to keep looking. Talked to a guy today that mentioned Manley has a good selection of springs, as well as offset retainers, and keepers that could help remedy the situation.
He has a spring checker but thought it only went to 1.7 min.

I'll keep you posted.

 

Truth be told,like lifters and piston rings, there are only a few manufacturers of these components.
The rest are re boxed,maybe to a higher standard if they pay the manufacturer but a rebox none the less.
Try pac or psi for a spring,if you have to look up the inners and outers as separate components.
I made spacers to fill the pockets in the heads and put the floor flat,I was able to correctly shim the spring with a standard shim and found about a 10 pound increase by doing this.
You can put the spring in a vise,set to coil bind with the retainer measure add .060 for safety,and total lift and there is your minimum installed height.anything more than that when you measure the installed height in the head in your case is a bonus.
Depending on the lifter,300 lbs over the nose is more than adequate and 110 on the seat. Remember these motors make torque and do not need to spin hard,6200 is all a hydrolic lifter can take before it pumps up and floats unless it's a exotic with light oil.
I hope this is helpful for you.
Gary

 

have a 390 ford that kept breaking aluminium roller rockers , full solid roller motor
turns out push rods were 20 thou to long geometry was wrong
cut 20 thou of pushrod and added 20 thou lash cap
also where the push rod passed thru the intake, the pushrod was coming in contact
with it. had to enlarge the holes in the intake
haven't broke any since

 

I think I would be asking Ross racing engines for some advice, just a thought.
Al.

 

I'm astounded by the variation in Springs. I've looked at Elgin, Sealed Power, PSA, Isky, Manley, and more.
The problem with the Buick is the pocket in the head limits your diameter selection of the inner and the outer, and the installed height is relatively low compared to other motors.

I have a set of Schneider springs coming. Their web states 1.3 bind, but when I called they pulled the specs and the inner is .980, outer is 1.0. They are custom made for them, and he said they sell a lot of springs only to 322 guys.

Anxious to get these and start some measureing.

 

Nailheads build their power on the low end. Chasing high rpm power with one seems to be expensive and problematic.

 

T.V. Tom & Tony Nancy ran quite a few of them back in the late 50's & 60's and did very well with them

They won a lots of races too, so they must of hung together very well

 

When I get the right springs in it will make some torque !

 

It sure will, I love my 322, it loves me!!

 

Time flies when you're waiting on parts.
I received the Schneider springs yesterday and they have the larger OD inner spring like the ones that Russ sent me. The box is marked 364-425.

This sketch illustrates the 322 Buick head pocket dimensions, why a .965 OD inner spring will not work.



I found that some aftermarket spring companies offering is limited to what sells.
I did some research on Elgin's and Mellings master list and found several inner springs that should work.

Note some applications are Suburu, Nissan, etc. I'm checking availability at the top of the list. The sealed power is for reference.



For contrast here are the original Buick specs.

 

I also recalculated the spring rates around the same open and closed heights to get a better comparison
The second, third, and fourth look pretty good compared to the original Buick Spec at the far bottom.

 

It's always tricky to build something rare. I suppose you could have the heads machined for the larger diameter springs.

 

I was going to suggest the same thing. I have had heads cut to accommodate the spring that I wanted to use. Get them cut for PC seals. Why not move your seat out a little? .015 on a side should be OK. Right?

 

Rich,
My first approach is to try to remedy this with springs.

Second would probably be to use .050 offset keepers. Technically these should work, the later valves are .100 taller with the same rocker shaft assemblies and the retainers don't hit rockers arms. I'd like to test this with a test spring set up.

Last would be to yank the heads, and either go to the later taller valves, or slightly open the pockets for bigger springs.

 

I did get a check lifter made up. There was .200 travel so I used two orings on both sides of the plunger that were a little over .100. They seem to hold it centered very stiffly in place.

 

I love(pardon pun) I guy that does his homework! Separate's the dog's from the porch!
You'll get it. I would say=.02c,that it's just finding the RIGHT spring,with the RIGHT dimension's, or blowing out the seat a tad.....
The latter is more costly,but peace of mind is another..... Either way,you're on the right track.

 

I've never heard of a single problem with flathead rocker arms!!!..... Just sayin ...;-)

Sorry .. I had to

 

Well, The Elgin RV-1408 is actually a Toyota 1.6L and 2.0L Spring. On the plus side this part does cross to a genuine GM Part Number 94855715, the down side is that is a GM Geo Prizm that is!......But hey at least its a racy DOHC


Genuine Factory Geo OEM Part - 1997 Geo Prizm - LSi L4 1.8 Liter GAS
VALVE SPRINGS- Cylinder Head & Valves - VALVE SPRINGS
94855715 - Sale Price: $4.32

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