Projects The Hardscrabble Hop-Up; A 1940's Style 'T' RPU build

Great build, very cool thread. Looking at your fuel pipe, could it be that there is too much tube on the far side of the ferrule? I've seen that prevent Yor and Swagelok fittings from sealing as the tube bottoms out in the female fitting before the ferrule fully seats? just a thought.

 

Thanks! Yeah, that fitting is altogether wrong (it's a -5AN); doesn't thread in far enough to compress the ferrule onto the tubing, so that's why it looks the way it does...ferrule just slides up & down the tube.

I'm about 75% finished polishing the spare Winfield manifold...liking what I'm seeing, but dang it's a lot of work!

 

Did you try a JIC fitting on it?

 

Nope, I was able to get a correct "Ford nut" (1/2-20 inverted flare fuel fitting) and ferrule from Jerry Grayson...to make a long story short, the ferrule and fitting didn't work either. Upon further examination, the inlet casting was worn or 'wallowed' out too much for the ferrule to compress to the fuel line and seal effectively - the ferrule would get stuck in the inlet casting before it would compress to the line. Solution; leave the ferrule stuck in the casting, flare (*45) the fuel line, and re-tighten the fitting.

Works perfectly now - tested up to 10 psi without leaks. Looks like I'm good to go. Hope to get the motor test-run in the next week or so. Video to follow;

 

Good luck on your test run

 

Hey!...I have that same Leopard print top on my workbench...

 

Good to hear you got the fitting figured out.

Jic cutters are available and recutting the fitting hole would be an option if problems persist.

 

Is there something you two want to tell us?

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Good luck on the test run...hope to see a video soon.

 

Thanks fellas! Hoping to see if I can get to it this weekend or early next week.

In the meantime, I made a new carb stack and am trying to finish up the polish job - just lack the underside of the back 'leg' and a little finish work here & there.

 

Man that looks sweet! Is the background material gonna be your upholstery?

 

Hahaha, hell no! That's the upholstery on the wife's padded coffee table. Thinking I'll go with oxblood naugahyde.

 

Wow gwhite. Usually I'm not a big polish fan, but with the dark winfield carb that set up is beautiful! I really like the stack too, may have to use that idea on my BB. Good luck with the test run!
Johnny

 

Thanks Johnny! I originally polished it up thinking that I'd use it with an adapter and a chromed-out Stromberg as a back up in case I couldn't get the Winfield working right - still might end up doing that.

The idea for the stack came from this 1937 shot of Pat Campea...I had my local muffler shop put a 2" flare on a section of 1 3/4" exhaust tubing. Then I cut it & polished the steel. Not sure if I'm going to keep it (if I do, I'll have it chromed) or if I'm going to make another one - maybe 'frog mouth' style.

 

Don't think the compression sleeve or any other ferrule belongs on that fuel line. Isn't this just the common inverted flare steel fuel line you always see at the parts store? The tubing flare seats directly on a conical seat projecting back up towards you from the bottom of the hole. The nut clamps the flare betweens itself & that seat to make the seal. Anyway it seems like you got it to work so maybe it's best to leave it alone. It's good to know JIC flare seat cutters are available if you should end up having to repair a seat. And that you have soldering skills.
Great build, love the attention to detail. - Jeff

 

I'm 100% sure it uses a compression fitting & ferrule, just as @Hitchhiker posted on the last page. He has the exact same inlet on his carb, it's machined for a ferrule & inverted flare fitting - problem with mine is that the 'seat' for the ferrule is wallowed out from use/wear. I tried using an inverted flare fitting with a flared tube - didn't work, the fitting bottoms out on the threads before snugging against the flare.

Worst case scenario is I have to find another inlet casting - or use some kind of 1/2-20 to tube flare fitting.

 

So just pulled out my stuff Winfield stuff. I have a top inlet that appears 1/4 inch whatever and a side inlet the same 1/4 inch looking thread. and a 1/2-20 side inlet that I am using. Neither of the 1/4 inch stuff has surface for a ferrule to seal.

 

OK, I reread the last pages & looked at the photos again. Unless I really misunderstand something here something is just wrong. I might have to be more long winded to explain but I'll throw some sex in to keep things interesting.
The first picture shows metal tubing with a compression fitting sleeve & then what you ID as an AN nut. I want to point out the external male threads on the nut which implies that you are trying to seat a compression sleeve in the bottom of the inlet hole in the carb. Assembled picture & text implies this also. This is not how compression fittings work. Doesn't matter what kind of nut you try, if it has male threads it's the wrong part. The sex of the connection is wrong at this point. You would have to still be missing the main body of the compression fitting. Easier to send you to hardware store for a compression fitting than describe why. On the other hand, if this is really a flared tubing connection no ferrule of any kind is used.
So now what? Design wise it's a process of elimination. First you determine what type of tubing connection you want & then that will drive what type of threads to put in whatever you are attaching the line to, factoring in what standard fittings are actually manufactured in the real world. I can see metal tubing so the most likely tubing connection would be flare (regular or inverted), compression or maybe bango.
Let's look at compression fittings first. To use a compression fitting here would follow what 25merc said. The most common practice is to drill & tap tapered pipe threads then insert the appropriate standard off the shelf "adapter" fitting. Said adapter has pipe threads on one end & the seat & threads for the chosen tube connection on the other. The pipe threads form the semipermanent connection to the port & are good for at least 150 psi, much more than we need here. Actually the adapters are not limited to pipe threads but I really don't think we are dealing with anything like O-ring ports here. But the compression fittings only come with the pipe threads, so deciding on a compression fitting drives the inlet hole to be tapered pipe threads. In your case, based on sizes mentioned, you could go to the hardware store and look in the compression fittings for a Male Connector, 5/16 tube x 1/4npt. Other than the same thing as an elbow that is pretty much the only choice available but at least it's cheap and easy to find. I'd also mention that compression fittings may be better suited for copper lines than steel. Also note that the tubing nut has female threads not male. Told you sex was involved.
A flare fitting can also be used the same way. A standard adapter fitting with pipe threads and a flare seat & threads on the other end. Again the tubing nut will have female threads, not male. But when you are making millions of cars it makes good sense to try to eliminate the cost of couple fittings by machining say a flare seat directly in your part. Of course you also have to invert the sex of the tube nut to male threads & thus the inverted flare so commonly found in fuel lines. Said threads are straight threads not tapered pipe because they aren't needed. The seal is formed by clamping the flare between the conical seat in the port & matching seat in the end of the tube nut.
Another option may be a bango fitting. This also uses straight threads not pipe. I know crap about early Ford or Winfield carbs so someone else may have to tell you this for sure. I think bango is more likely than compression but what do I know?
So where does this lead? My first choice would be inverted flare & steel lines. This is the most common in my limited experience. The threads in the carb inlet would be straight not tapered pipe & have a conical seat projecting back up towards you from the bottom of the hole. And NO ferrules! Sticking my neck out, but I seem to recall one of the inverted flare nuts on the parts store lines was always longer than the other by about a 1/4". Maybe that's why you ran out of thread? And it's possible the flare seat is buggered by now & leaks. If so I can suggest possible fixes but this reply has been too long already so I'll leave that til later if need be.
Second choice is actually bango. Third choices would be regular flare or compression (or even inverted flare) with a pipe threaded adapter fitting. Honestly, I don't think pipe threads because boss doesn't look thick enough to prevent splitting.
Just my long winded opinion, hope it helps.
Jeff

 

Jeff, model A Fords used a steel line with a "male" ferrule. The line protrudes through the ferrule a little. When the ferrule seats against the "female" conical seat in the inlet and the nut(male straight threads) is tightened, the ferrule crimps to the line.

 

Yes. Thank you. This is what my particular inlet was designed for (confirmed by @Hitchhiker, who has an identical inlet). My issue is that the seat in the casting is too worn for the ferrule to seat correctly. My temporary fix to the problem was to jam the ferrule into the casting and use a flared line. Not ideal, so I am looking for another inlet casting for a more permanent solution.

While I appreciate the help, I'd rather not focus so much on the ins & outs of fittings...while I don't know a whole lot about that 'world', I do know what is required in this application and I'd rather keep this thread focused on my slow-but-steady build.

Thanks again to all who have contributed/lent their thoughts. Let's move on!

 

Stopped by Ross' place to drop off the carb, Model B starter, and rebuilt water pump. Need to get that stuff bolted up & do a few last min checks...

 

Nice!

 

Looks fantastic!

 

I better get mine done!

 

Bad a$$!

 

Makes me want a banger again.... spose I need to get the 39 done first, I love this thread, such a cool car!

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I'm reminded tonight how good a tasteful splash of yellow looks in the engine bay.

 

Next time your up this way....let me know...I have a Model a block that I'm tired of looking at if your interested Its been checked for cracks, none....I also have crank....its free to you

 

I do need to make a trip up your way! I think I'm good with the motor but am always willing to investigate the possibility of expanding the "collection"...really need an extra frame (to cut up & make an engine stand). Know of anyone that's got one?

 

Motor looks great gwhite! TIme to get going on mine. Would you have any idea what sort of red the original "red heads" were painted?
Thanks, johnny