Technical French Flathead?

Is this a French Flathead?

 

does it have the governor boss on the drivers side rear?

 

No

 

I would say yes. Type "Simca Vedette" in the Bing search engine and it will bring up images including several that look like your engine. One of your engine's valves says "Simca". The earlier (circa 1950) Simca V-8 engine was based on the V8-60. BTW, the Vedette line-up included sedan, station wagon, panel delivery, coupe and convertible models that looked like 1949-50 Mercurys, right down to the door "dip" in about 5/8 scale, so the V8-60 looked completely at home, except for a funky looking water pump modification. Later versions may have grown to a standard 59AB size and I would speculate that the "French Flathead" had additional "industrial" features like the governor boss due to its military application. Be interesting to read input from HAMBer flathead gurus more knowledgeable than I. Pour les HAMBers en France, qu'est-ce que vous avez a dire a ce sujet?

 

Yes I think it's the first one French Flathead they are put on Simca Vendôme and Comette Montecarl But Simca use orriginal Ford bloc and headers after simca made himself all the new bloc

 

Your English is better than my French.

 

Post on Fordbarn, a wealth of flathead knowledge on that site.

 

Me, I'm not sure, but try this:

Put a pack of Galoises next to it, if it idles better, it's probably French.

 

Might be engines from "cargo" trucks, 3.9 liters from 1955 to 1959.
The ones with the govenor boss are in "Marmon" trucks 4.2 liters from 1959 until the 90's.
In cars "big" flathead were only in Ford vedette "Vendome", all other cars get the "small" french version of the v8-60, like Lucas says.

 

This is not a frenchflat of a truck Marmon and Simca Cargo, these engines are different and are not marked on the block "Ford"...

 

The heads of the Marmon 255 and Simca Cargo 239 are marked with "FMA" and "V V"

 

Hi, I got exactly the same flathead as rssr, please see attached pics. Serial No. is 4F09NN2403644, but it doesnt say much to me, except its a French made. If someone can decode the SN a bit, I would be very grateful!

 

The block says Ford SAF. So it is indeed a French Flathead but a Ford one. Those were found in Fords from 1932 till 1934, when Ford SAF disappeared as a car builder, before coming back after the war and Matford from 1934 till 1939. The Flathead was found in some Chenard & walker Aigle 22 also.
But the valve says Simca and the dizzy looks to be Simca too (but I'm more used to see the Simca than the Ford), probably been rebuild with what was available at the time...

 

An other thing : Simca never used the 3 bolt design of the Stromberg 81 (Zenith 22.2 over here) or the 97 (Zenith 26.4 if I recall correctly)

 

Is it smoking a cigarette?,
does it smell like it needs a shower?
Does it always want to go on holiday?
Does it NOT like Americans and have a BAD attitude?

If so, most definitely French!!!



Your Pal, Gary

 

Is it drinking beer?
Does it smell like junk food?
Does it always want to go to war?
Does it not like French and have a cocky attitude?


If so, most definitely American!!!



On the subject of those engines, when Ford SAF came back with the big Flathead after world war 2 it used a 4 bolt Solex 32 carb.
Edit, I found out that early Vedette did use the 22.2.

 

Thanks chrisp, so you think that my block is prewar and possibly refurbished after the war with some new parts? My heads are definitely poswar (F59A) and so are the some other parts. Dont know about the valves, havent taken the heads off yet. Thanks

 

Gee I don't know 24 bolt head means late 38, it's a Ford SAF and I'm not aware of 3.9L with Stromberg type carbs after the war in car applications, the "big" Flathead made it back in cars in '53 with the Ford Vendome, but as far as I know with a 4 bolt Solex carb.
Before the war, big V8 cars were imported from the US and were quite rare in France since they were costing more than twice the US price, and the engines were certainly not Ford SAF. I believe that the 3.9L 24 studs Ford SAF car engines were only available in 53-55 (Vendome & Monte Carlo, the later one had aluminum heads), but trucks were available from 38/39 with the 3.9L.
Now the interesting thing is Ford SAF did built stuff during the war for Nazi Germany...notably trucks and industrial applications.
I believe your engine is most likely a post war Ford Poissy truck engine (because of your heads), if anything is stamped Simca, it was rebuilt with those parts since Ford SAF disappeared in 54.
I m trying to explain as best as I can, my train of thoughts, with what I know and some could be wrong ;-)

 

During the war European Ford plants continued to make trucks but the Detroit Ford people had nothing to say about it, for obvious reasons.

What is the bore and stroke?

 

What is the casting block date? My french flathead was cast in 1964

 

Thanks a lot for great info ! When the heads will be off I send more pics.
Attached are casting marks and stamped numbers, but I think it wont say much.

 

When the head is marked with "FMA" wich one would it be? The 255 ore 239?

 

Chrisp is right, this is a post war Ford Poissy truck engine ! first french flatheads! pretty rare

 

Did you find out more on the SN bit?

 

OK...
Ford (counting only USA motors) lists last 239 early style production motor as 2,374,315, yours is 2,403,644,
which makes good sense. It is obviously in the same series as our pre-1949 239 engines.
We know for sure that 239 earlies went on in production for quite a while in Germany and France (and 221's went on in England long after the last USA 221)

German and British engines were issued blocks of serials by Ford, going way past the numbers listed generally because those only covered US production.
The use of the Ford numbers shows engine was still a Ford relative or licensee, I think the purely post-Ford engines like the late V8 60's no longer carried a Ford connection or Ford serial.

Your prefix, 4F09NN, doesn't match up...I think as clues emerge some of that will become clear as a year abbreviation. All those characters seem to suggest that it also had more info than Ford used in '48...probably it will tell you that it was used in a truck, what factory made it, stuff like that.

There are LOTS of Ford and Ford licensed motors outside of the serial numbers always quoted on line!!
One oddity is the 1935 and 1936 V860...you can see all the motors not listed in the charts! The V8 60 chart ran up to 6,600 engines before any were sold in USA. They were only sold in England and Europe. 221 and 239 Ford show a big block of missing numbers during WWII...those numbers did not make the printed lists but there were lots of them. Blocks of numbers were pulled out and assigned to Germany, England, and France within the blocks listed for USA and all of those then went on and produced numbers beyond the lists we see!