Hot Rods Schramm air compressor engine- anyone know anything about these?

I bought this engine from a guy who was going to scrap it. He said it ran before he pulled it. 4 cylinders run, 4 cylinders compress air. What I want to know is, what internally is different then a regular flathead V8? Can I swap the heads/intake and have a regular runner?

 

my guess is the camshaft is special for that application , probably need to change it?

 

Very high compression and maybe no bumps on the cam for the compressor cylinders. (heads probably not useful for automotive use) God only knows what the firing order might be. Most I've seen were 6s with 4 power and 2 compressor, so might not all be the same size bores and/or stroke.
I wouldn't destroy it for the block.

 

I'm pretty sure these type of setups used special heads (obviously) and the lifters on the pump cylinders are removed. Other that that, it is a bone stock engine. Stick in a set of lifters and some heads and fire it up

 

Thanks guys. I figured the cam was different. A few guys said the exhaust valves will be gone on the compression cylinders, and it may have cast iron pistons. A few guys said these are sought after and to keep it as-is. I figure it is probably a low milage (?) engine and may be very nice inside. If so, doing a cam/lifters is no big deal to get a good engine. It is just a 21 stud, but would still be a good runner for something. I bught it just so it would not get scrapped, if anyone is wanting it for what it is before I tear into it, or even for the compressor parts themselves...shoot me a PM.

 

Keep us posted with what you find out internally. These compressor flatheads have always intrigued me.

 

Want to know what I'd do ?
I'd run it and have the 4 pumping cylinders boost the 4 running cylinders.

 

I know that I have been trying to come upon one for quite some time!

You do very well for rescuing great, uncommon and interesting parts!

I'm glad you take the time to share with us!

 

Wow...those are not very common anymore. A family member had one that used to drive an elevator of some sort......I'm sure it still sits where it always did....but my uncle has long since passed. He used it to run his pneumatic tools, pretty much forever. Two cylinders on each bank make air. They do still sell or service those in the Fort Worth area....and I think I may be able to get a name for you. They are somewhat coveted amongst tool collectors.....and may be worth something more then just an engine use.

 

Same thing I was thinking!

 

Well.........should have figured the guy passed away......but hey.....FordBarn has a thread on it with a new contact number. Jim Arras 419-722-0774

....and the thread....
http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96462&showall=1

Good luck, that thing is bad ass as a stand alone. My uncle was a big machinery mechanic, that worked out of his garage. Air tools, painted cars, and a lift........all ran off of that damn thing.....or things....I guess he has two plumbed in over there. Don't ask me how, or what.....you will soon know more then me anyway....

....and another thread regarding rarity in particular models
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58215

....lastly
http://www.fordv8foundation.org/

 

That'd be a most compact supercharger...

 

My guess is a stock V8 would develop more power than the 'supercharged' 4 cylinder. Pumping losses would likely use as much or more power as the benefits gained from trying to use the compressed air as a supercharger.

Excuse me, please, I have to get back to work on my Perpetual Motion Machine.

Ray

 

LOL My sentiments exactly, Ray.

 

If you can get the bottom end to hold together, a boosted 4 cyl can out perform a stock V8 on every level except low end torque. You make up for that with gearing & then your off; off like a prom dress or off to the races.

 

Perhaps, but this isn't really what you describe....it's a V8 running on 4 cylinders with the other 4 doing other work, albeit intended to boost the running cylinders.

Rube Goldberg would be proud though, to know his concepts are alive and well!

Ray

 

First you'd need to see if you could possibly use all of the boost that the 4 cylinders can produce. I'd imagine the pumping cylinders are set to pump on every up stroke driven by those on a 4 stroke cycle. Theoretically it could be pumping 2x the displacement of the 4.
Maybe 2 puming for 6 running would be enough. I guess you'd need to evaluate the pumping loss to drive 4 cylinders vs parasitic drag of the supercharger. Then divide that by the efficiency of each. Take into account the point where diminishing returns happens for each. Then do some math.

I'm going to bet that when the guy said hey, I'm going to make an air compressor out of a V8 engine they said the same thing

 

Man that's cool......

 

As for the forced induction issue I think it would not be enough volume,as 4 bores would attempt to "supercharge" 4 bores of equal size.....you end up with what gamblers call a "push"


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Just looking at the picture, I believe I see how it operates. It draws through the stock intake valves. The exhaust valves are disabled by removing the lifters. There are one way valves in those attachments on the heads. They flap shut as the air is drawn in and open as it is compressed by the piston, allowing the compressed air to travel in one direction, towards the tank or implement. I still think everything is stock Ford except for the heads and the intake

 

Uuuuuuh I hadn't read "vickys" last post or considered compressing on every stroke,...4 into 4 could double each "run" cylinders volume ,that is a damn interesting concept but since forced induction has been around since the thirties or earlier (duesenberg etc) and I don't think anyone ever built one that way it must not be practical...why don't you build one Vicky.hemi? It sure would be interesting!


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If I find one I will, especially if I rescue it from a trip to the scrap yard -

 

http://thekneeslider.com/ducati-v-one-twin-to-supercharged-single-conversion/

Ducati 1000 DS, a 2 valve air cooled twin, into a supercharged single, using the rear cylinder as the blower. The 498cc single has 15 HP more than the original (1000 cc) twin putting out 102 HP at the rear wheel,

so for the math wizards -
1/2 the displacement and 15 more HP
Is that roughly 17% increase on 50% less - one cylinder ? Oh my yes it is ,,, and to the rear wheels so all parasitic losses are accounted for.

I guess if you already had your pencil sharp and calculator warmed up you might want to find a 500 cc normally aspirated HP figure and comparison that to 102 hp at the rear wheels. Then you need to do BSFC analysis on both to which is more efficient at making "power"

 

A fellow I know locally has an original Model A flat head banger motor that runs on two and pumps with two. I don't remember the maker but it could be the same as this one. Makes plenty air.

 

Here's a machine to ponder
Maybe Rube has some influence

 

Ingersol-Rand used 302 fords for air compressors in their towable units..Four running.Four compressing.
Many years ago,Mother Earth News(R)published plans about how to convert a 302 to an air compressor.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

 

I serviced a good many of those back when I was a teamster. They were a tad finicky. I always liked the IR Diesel compressors better.

 

we had these on the tire service trucks , the 4 cylinders had a unloader ( the square device on the head was a air operated dump valve ) and the exhaust valve in the block was opened by pressure not the cam ( poppet valve ) ,the cam only opened the intake valve on them so they would freewheel when the pressure was met . they brought head pressure up quick but were limited to 150 psi by the pistons ( ring seal ) and they would put lots of oil in the air too ( from running unloaded ) as for using it for a supercharger , It might provide a little umph , but basically it would act like a jake brake and what you gain you would loose in the pumping process . plus the air would be heated higher ( less density ) from the block and the water jackets .

 

That is cool! I'm curious what the insides look like.

 

I've never seen one, but it's cool! Wonder how much air it puts out? Seen a kit one time to convert a VW 4cyl into a two cyl compressor like that.