everybody says use Vega box in my 40..talked to a steering box, rebuilder and he says too light. use the GM 525 any thoughts or opinions.. thanks
By now there must be several hundred fat fendered Fords running around with a Vega box. I have not heard of massive failures which should be the case if they were substantially unfit for the task. However, the 525 box is a heaver duty version of essentially the same design so why not "error" on the side of safety if you have any doubts. Nothing is worth more than "peace of mind" when driving down the highway than the secure feeling your ride is up to the task of meeting an unexpected emergency. Frank
I'd use the 525, I agree the Vega box may be a little light duty for the 40. I've got a Vega in my 29 but that's a lighter car.
I use the 525 in my 29 AA. Vega imho is for model A or model T cars-pickups, it is a little on light side for a 40.
why not use the stock gemmer box way better than anything they make now why take out the excellent original roller sector box and put a cheap ass vega box in there
I have a 39 Ford sedan with a 525 in it and works well with the dropped axle set up .The car has been together like this since the early 80s with no problems.Like others have said the Vega box is to light..
Added bonus is that the original Ford pitman arm will fit the splines on the 525 box. I have a box from a '64 Chevelle in my truck.
When I was building Model A's the Vega box was the way to go,then I got into 40 Fords and I used the bigger GM box,,then I started building the Deuces and started using the Vega style box again. I have used a original 40 Ford steering column and box in a Model A and a Deuce,but prefer the Vega. HRP
the gemmer roller sector steering box was introduced in fords in 37 and was a huge improvement over the earlier non roller type, and was used by ford in cross steering style till 48 in cars and the 60's in pickups draglink style the F-1 and the F-100 are both gemmer roller sector boxes,as are the beautiful Hudson steering boxes that Neal in Ca is building for a lot of top end 32to 34 fords,albiet those are draglink style units,the 37 to 48 box has long been considered an excellent upgrade for 35,36 fords.I had one in my 35 coupe and I put one in my 36 phaeton,ask couverkid how that steers. both cars drove great,your 40 already has that box properly setup they work great and your horn will work at the button. somebody better warn Dan Webb that the beautiful 32 3 window he's building right now with a gemmer box from Neal is going to "drive like an old truck" what do you base your fat fendered experience on Doug Chris in spokane has one of Neal's Gemmer boxes in his 34 roadster ask him how it drives my 35 coupe (same frame as a 40) had a chev motor in it so it clears that setup also geuss my point is it aint broke so why "fix" it B
I totally agree with the steering box guru. I will be changing my stock '40 box in my '40 to a 525, or the p/s version of it, the 625. Both are supposed to mount to the bracket made for the vega. IMHO, the vega should stop at '34s. Been hearing this info for a while.
I think I am wrong about the p/s version of the 525. Should be a 605, I believe. Sorry for the mistake.
That is good info to know. Which GM cars have the 525 or the power version? I am thinking about going this route for my Lincoln, would prefer the power version as the wife likes to drive too, and the power would be nice to have for her. What about the adapter mount that places like Speedway sell, does it just bolt to the frame, and the box to it? I'm close on room, the brainiac that put the Chevy in my Lincoln put the DS motor mount directly over the stock steering box, I may end up having to go with new mounts just to change the steering.
I have a vega box on my 36 convert. when I bought the mount from Pete and Jakes, Jerry, the owner told me that the 39 that Pete C built in the 80's when the whole fat fender thing took off had a vega box and that car was driven all over the place with no problems...
38fordpickup, kudos for info about interchange of Ford pitman arm to 525 box. I'm using a 525 in my '48 Long Door Coupe after waffling, buying a 'StangII crossmember & parts. Trad is bad! Not to hijack thread but anyone with experience raising cross-member in '41-'48 to lower suspension? Out of respect for OP you can PM me with info. Thanx.
I have a 48 Ford box in my deuce. It works ok, but the roller sector design has a lot of on-center play that I could do without. It's also slow - autocrossing this car is a no-go. If I were to do this again I'd probably pick a fast ratio power box or use one of the R&P systems out there. The old Ford box is fine, but there are faster, more precise boxes you can use.
I am running the stock box in my 2 '40's I don't mind them at all and I think they work well but if you don't already have one you might as well step up to a newer box. Because by the time you locate a '40 box with all the parts and if it needs gone through you're already ahead by going with the 525.
This may be some help to those considering a change. This list refers to the 605 box, but a manual 122 box would be in the same vehicles. GM Box Interchange A list of direct bolt-on boxes and some that need modifications. (Note this list refers to Saginaw 605 Power boxes but would probably apply to manual as well. Interchange #706 Buick Special 64-70 Camaro 67-74 Chevelle 64-70 Chevy 65-70 Firebird 67-73 Grand Prix 69-70 Monte Carlo 70 Monza 75-79, 8cyl Monza 78-80,6cyl Nova 68-70 Olds 64-70 F-85 64-70 Pontiac 64-70 Skyhawk 75-80 Starfire 75 Starfire 76-80, 6 cyl Starfire 77-79, 8cyl Sunbird 76-80 Tempest 64-70 Fast Ratio Box: 20/1 # 7806396 Cast No. 5679142 Monza/Vega Box: 16/1 # 7819935 Manual Saginaw 525 The box was renamed 525 in 1986, when the input spline on the 122 box was changed from 3/4-36 to 3/4-30. The 525 manual box was used extensively by GM. The 525 box is recommended for manual box applications on street rods, especially those more than 2,500 lbs. The location of the motor mounts often restricts the box size in street rod applications prior to '34 with modern V-8 engines. This accounts for the popularity of the smaller Vega box. The 525 boxes can be used on some pre-'34 applications with slight frame modifications. Borgeson offers a number of 525 variations, such as a rebuilt 525, a short-input rebuilt 525 with a 1-inch input shaft, a reversed rebuilt 525, a Mullins quick-ratio 525 with a 16:1 ratio versus the stock 22:1, and a quick-ratio 525 short input. There's also a Mullins 122 rebuilt manual box available with the 36-spline input shaft if required. (Borgeson owns Mullins, so the latter are available through Borgeson.) Fast ratio Power Steering- Saginaw 605 Use box from 1977-81 Camaro/Firebird with disc brakes (or any 800 series box used in Novas, full size GM, etc), gives approx 3 turns lock to lock, versus original power steering 4.5 turns. All later model boxes require the 1964 - 72 Chevelle pitman PS arm (required change) when used on earlier Chevelles. Steering shaft comes in two diameters, get the appropriate flex coupling lower half in the same style as original to match the boxes shaft. 1982 or 86 to 92 Comaro Z-28/firebird Trans-AM are 2 turns (12:1) lock to lock, Use original end cap to get the right stops on 2 turn boxes to decrease turning radius. Later model boxes (1980 and up) use “O” rings instead of flared input and output lines. Later model internals can be swapped into early boxes to eliminate problems with line fittings and stops or pump can be modified by changing outlet valve (this requires verification) or swapped to accept "O" ring hosed. Dimension Vega Saginaw A Box length 5 7/8” 7 1/8” B Box height 5 1/2” 6 1/2” C width 4 5/8” 5 3/8” Dia. Steering shaft 5/8” ¾” A stock Vega box and it measures 7" from the end of the sector shaft that the pitman arm bolts to, to the top of the cover that the adjuster sticks thru. That measurement doesn't include the adjuster. The mounting bracket which is welded to the frame has standoffs that the mounting surfaces are 5/8" from the frame. That is where the mounting surfaces of the box make contact. So......the most inboard part of the box is about 4 3/4" from the frame when mounted. I used a : Astro Van intermediate shaft (1985-2005 ?? between the box and steering column, it has two small universal joints and a small diameter vibration damper as well as a short sliding section. In the OEM application both U-joints are running at about 45 degrees. I starrted compiling this info when I was improving the steering on my 64 Malibu, but it turned into a excellent resource for the steering on my 30 coupe. I used a 70 GM A body Saginaw 122 box on it. Rebuilt parts still available, Canuck
hey thanks a lot, Canuck, that helps a lot.. I was told to stay away from the 605... hey Fortynut, send me your email, I have pics of what you want..
C'mon man. Hot rodding is all about not using stock stuff. I cringe every time I read a "what is wrong with your stock (blank)?" Uh, it is old, worn out, and a bad design, that is what is wrong. Even worse are the "That is the way Henry Ford designed it" guys. UGH!
One rotation of a shaft is the same as one rotation of a shaft. The wheel that makes it rotate has nothing to do with it. The radius of a wheel affects the leverage that can be applied to the shaft. The larger the diameter wheel, the more leverage which makes the shaft easier to turn against resistance. The smaller the wheel, the harder it is to turn against resistance. You may move your hands less with a smaller wheel due to the decreased diameter, but that has nothing to do with steering ratio. 360 degrees will always be a circle and no wheel diameter can change that.
That's what I thought. Works just like putting on a shorter shift lever makes your trans a close ratio box.
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