I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to tilt mine. I've never seen one done--just a few un-revealing photos so far. I haven't found any good info on the web yet either. Have you ever seen one up close? If I build some complicated contraption then find out there's an easy way, and other people have been doing it like that since 1949, I'm gonna get tweaked.
*crickets* 11PM PDT here. I'm bumpin' this for any insomniacs. Also, The P15 in question, just for reference, my 1947 Plymouth Club Coupe (Sorry to have neglected this data! I seem to have forgot that I'm not on a marque-specific forum here. )
There's a few build threads on here of gasser cars getting tilt front ends. Usually it's a fiberglass front end. I can't imagine the weight of trying to tip forward a steel Plymouth Coupe front. And I'm with the other guy...why?
Doing a steel tilt frontend requires some challenges that fiberglass doesn't. First getting all the steel attached in one piece, but retaining the gaps. If you just bolt or weld it together tightly, it wont fit the car right. So making sure you retain factory gaps is very important. Getting steel all together, and making a hinge setup that allows the frontend to not only tilt, but do so without rubbing on the doors, or interfering, is the next big challenge. If you simply put a hinge up front, it will be a major hassle to have to spread the fenders each time you tilt it open, which will take two people, and eventually ruin the metal. It needs to move forward to clear the doors, and then tilt. I've seen it done with pillow block linear bearings, and a solid rod to slide; then a hinged point on the rod to tilt it. I did my Falcon with a pivot system that pivots it forward 5", and then tilts. You'll also need to add bracing, or it will be very flimsy, and move while opening. So as heavy as that Plymouth frontend is now; it's going to get even heavier! It will always require two people to open that much weight, and if you ever have an emergency (like an engine fire) you better have a helper handy, or you'll be up the creek. If I really wanted a tilt frontend on a car this big, I'd probably invest in having a fiberglass mold built, and make up the hood and fenders from glass. Then the whole process would be drastically simplified.
To make people ask "Why?" LOL Really, the "why" of it is my business & this is just an excuse to bump my thread. If you've seen or done one please reply.
Sorry, that was pretty rude of me. I was sorta "underwhelmed" by the flood of constructive comments. The truth is that I want easy access to the engine & I absolutely hate bending over those huge fenders. Thanks to 1971BB427 for the constructive thoughts. It's a heavy thing to hinge, and simple measures really won't suffice. I've thought of a few different ways this could go, and I just haven't been impressed enough with my own ideas to start building yet. But I did start the demo. I've started cutting the welds off the hood hinge brackets and spring anchors, so officially the butchery has commenced.
They make tilt hood kits for Ford F-1's, but I think the front clip on a F-1 weighs less then your Dodge, but I've never worked on a P-15.
Everyone I know that has done a tilt front has said they wish they hadn't and would never do another. That alone is enough to turn me away. When someone puts that much work into it and ADMITS it was a bad idea you know it was bad! Leaning over the fenders cant be that bad. Get a couple moving blankets to save your pants from scratching the paint and call it a day
One thing to consider is the fact that the radiator bracket is a main bracing structure that holds those big P-15 front fenders together in the front end. Restructuring so you can tilt that massive front end seperate from the radiator might be a challenge ??? Cass, alias littlemo...
A few more comments while I have a minute...My profile doesn't say much about me. It's typical that some should scoff at my intents and capabilities. I'm 59 years old now BTW. I've worked in professional auto shops and on heavy equipment. I learned to weld 40 years ago. I've been fixing cars even longer. I was the son of a poor Airman who got shipped to every site on the DEW line & thus I attended 14 schools before graduation from the 11th grade. I finished school and started at college without ever becoming a senior. I was accepted to study at GMI in Flint at the age of 16, but the USAF shipped us out west & I went to study mechanical engineering at USU instead. I also studied computer programming, machine shop, and mechanical engineering. I was an application engineer, a manufacturing engineer, a design engineer, I designed tools and trusses, and I also ran a prototype shop, a fab shop, and a machine shop. I currently run two computer networks which I built, and I manage the back office at an engineering company. I haven't been chopping cars for 30 years, but I can handle this OK. Once I have a good design envisioned, the execution will be moot. I think people have misconceptions about how much these cars weigh. Right now I can pick up the bare clip and walk with it (sans hood) and I've tipped it about by hand. I don't think it'll be such a big problem to lift. Even without the hood attached, it's not that wobbly. But I won't rely on brute force methods to open it either. I have seen the "sliding rod/block" method on a fat fendered truck but I didn't like the idea at all. IMHO Sliding mechanisms pointing forward into the breeze are the last thing a car needs when it's exposed to road grime & dirt. I think the nose needs to be released with a single lever under the dash which both un-toggles the latch mechanism & then pushes the nose to "walk" forward & rise just slightly on 4 short links attaching from a brief reinforcing upper subframe to a brief lower subframe which actually pivots. I think that since I'm losing the bumper and apron, it can pivot at the front anti-sway bar locus, and the "lower" subframe would hinge right there. Maybe I can capture the links with rubber bushings right on the sway bar, to prevent rattles. I think the lifting might be by cable or belt or electric screw drive, but maybe with a hand wheel too. There will be some big concentrated forces at all the link pivots and lift attachments. This is why I want the subframes. No pivots will go to OEM metal. Subframe will link to subframe, and subframes will distribute loads to the sheetmetal broadly and gently. Anyhow, surely someone else has done this on a P15. They built millions of them, so this can't be the first time.
I intend to mod the bracket as is or replace it with a slightly sturdier custom one, but it won't hold the radiator. I'm going to get a smaller 3-row aluminum radiator with electric fan, and mount it to the frame using a reinforced cowl & maybe leaning back slightly. As the nose opens and tilts it will pass over the radiator without touching it. The cowl sides will have plastic rub strips to guide the inner fenders past.
I've had two buddies build Chevy AD trucks with tilt noses that worked out half way decently but the majority of the rigs I have seen with tilt noses in the past 41 years of rod trot going look like more trouble than the convenience of working on the engine ala 2 lane blacktop 55 Chevy is worth. I spent a few years working on and servicing tilt nose big trucks so I do know where you are coming from but personally I think you will create as many problems as you fix.
I had a friend that had a tilt front end on his P15, but he had the rear fender heals welded to the body and the clip sat against it at a 45 degree angle. One issue with cars with tilt front fenders is that you still have to reach over the tires, but now you have to duck under the fenders to be able to reach over the tires. If you want to keep the fenders intact, like you have stated before, you will have to duck under the fender heals, which will make the reach over the tires even worse. I suggest you prop the front clip up at the angle it will be at when open and see how difficult it will be to reach areas you will need to service towards the front of the car/motor, like changing a water pump or something similar. servicing things towards the rear might be easier, but I suspect the things towards the front will be much more challenging. I may not have all the education you have, but I've got a lot of hands on experience. I too am in my upper 50s, but I have been wrecking stuff on cars since I was 13. Gene
Mid '80's BMW's had a hinge assembly that allowed the front of the hood to pop up, and clear the doors before the hood hinged forward. Is that the direction you are thinking?
MOST of the time... Not all. It's a forever floppy kinda funky front end, fitment issues, harder to do some mechanical work (Some) on a sheet-metal front end it can get pretty pushed outta shape and a pain to raise without adding lift struts to it (the slide blocks-to-pivots are generally the best way to get stuff to clear, but im not sure about your car). Little things like wiring and stuff can suddenly become an "unforeseen issue" when doing this too. Also if you've ever been broken down on a windy day, or with semi's passing you.....well it can just plain suck. With that said,I like tilt fronts. done well they are neat, but hotrod pain in the ass sometimes neat. It sounds like you've got enough experience to really not need much example from anyone else, make it happen if you want it.
The ones I know that had it were unhappy with the floppy and poor fit, seems they were always adjusting to make it fit, and it never did. Also, like others have said, it really ISNT that easy to work on the motor with it that way. Things that used to be simple, like changing belts and timing on a front distributor motor are now PITA jobs done from the side and behind. One guy around here has a flip nose on a 40 ford, looks cool but he has to park the car on blocks to keep the nose from hitting, and have 5 feet in front of the car to open the nose at shows. Wind issues will wreak havoc on it too. Cool looking yes, practical for a driven car? no
With your extensive background and past history of working on cars tilting the front of that behemoth should be a fairly simple task. HRP
I had to go look up "AD" not being a Stovebolt guy, As far as creating problems, one basic principal of system design says that fixing a buggy system without starting from scratch results in even more bugs. I other words, you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. With enough time, money, effort and talent, however, you can build one really fast sow's ear. I sorta changed ideas. At first I thought since the fender tips could just spread enough to clear the cowl, I'd make some guides and rollers to get it past the cowl. Now I'm thinking I'll have a lever under the dash that unlatches the clip, then actually pushes the clip forward. It'll ride forward just a few inches on a 4-bar linkage setup, then tilt up, move forward, and drop a tad. If I do it right the bars should overcenter to lock it open, & will need a release lever to free the mechanism Thanks Johnny. This is about what I expected. I was also expecting to hear that it increased cowl shake too and who knows what all. I can design and build the linkage and latches necessary. It's mainly a matter of whether I can do them well without lots of prototyping. I figure lots of prototyping has already been done & I want to benefit from that. The truth is that I come here specifically to benefit from your (collective) experience. Without real world experience, the education would mean a whole lot less guys. Some of my most valuable engineering training was from working as a teamster at an equipment rental company. I got to operate, maintain & and tear into many dozens of different machines to see how and why they were built the way they were. In school you study the basic principals up to most advanced techniques, but they almost totally neglect the history and study of what has been done before. Practical hands-on experience was very rare too. It would be a very different world if hotrodders were in charge. I will mock things up to make sure I have enough clearance to make this whole idea worthwhile. I might change my mind on splitting the fenders if they become a big headache-maker.
As an engineer, I am required to make it more complicated than necessary, out of respect to the profession. No, LOL...really, I just want to avoid re-inventing the wheel here. If there are easy ways and hard ways, I want someone else to try the hard ways first.
Thanks, Gearhead. This is the kind of helpful stuff I come here for. I will be removing the nose to do those jobs that the clip interferes with. But I do understand the operating clearance and "floppy fit" issues. Without proper reinforcement, repeated operation will stretch and re-shape the sheetmetal. I don't want to re-adjust the clip every time I open it.
You NEED to meet more people with tilt front ends! Put me down as someone who did it (with a still functioning hood BTW) and I absolutely LOVE it & would do it again in a second. In addition to the tilt I love the still functioning hood that I would NEVER even considering doing one WITHOUT a still functioning hood - best of both worlds! It is really sweet to sit on the tire and adjust the valves or whatever. Parked in a tight garage - no problem - just use the hood.
Thanks a bundle TR. I hadn't considered that that was desirable or even practical, but now it seems both. Do you have photos of the setup?
Haven't read the entire thread so apologies if this is already suggested: Use two of the four bumper bracket to frame bolts as the pivot. Make the radiator support free-standing. Attach the hood to the fenders and build a subframe that ties the front clip to the bumper bracket. I believe the bumper to frame attachment is low enough that with this pivot, the lower corners of the front fenders will clear the doors. If not, split the fenders behind the wheels at the molding and use themas a shelf for the front cli assembly to sit on.
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