Projects The "Under Pressure" 1930 Coupe build..!!

I will go that route Dubbzilla,thanks for the pics.!! This what I am deciding to use for mounts to the frame for my wishbones.Part number 916-36503 from Speedway or 916-35052 or 916-35015 also from Speedway.Anyone have suggestion about which to use..? I looked at Chassis Engineering site but couldnt find the ones Nick28 used for his build,which I really wanted.

 

I like 91635015 the best out of all of em. Looks a little tradizzionne. Plus you can trim it to get the right height to get your caster right.
-Steve

 

Ok..everything got settled with problems here and there and got to get back into the garage.Backing plates installed.New set of wheel cylinders came in,wrong ones sent,and I put them in.Tie rods are in the wishbones and the mounting plates to the frame are also on,but not welded.Now as you can see this is the caster measurement I get BUT nothing is welded in place.I read earlier that you should wait until you have ride height and THEN correct what needs to be corrected and then weld in those tie rod plates to the frame.I was also wondering if it would make a difference if the plates were welded to the outside or the inside of the frame.?Should I TACK weld them into place with the fact I might have to move them up or down when it is all put together.?

 

<style>@font-face { font-family: "Times New Roman"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }table.MsoNormalTable { font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; }</style> I'm guessing that your frame, since it was put together by a frame builder, has been designed and engineered for a certain ride height, or a close whereabouts. It's not a space shuttle, but it's gotta be close and within the tolerances.

Your front crossmember is welded in the frame at a certain angle, so that when your spring and axle are bolted up, the crossmember "sets" the caster, down through your spring and perches and then your axle and kingpins. The finger bone's connected to the hand bone! haha

Your bones are used to lock that angle in and make sure your kingpin caster matches the caster set in the crossmember.

So... just leave the bones unattached completely for now. Don't forget to factor in your rubber heights. I mocked my frame up with the tires on the front and rear axle, some guys do it without the tires on, but use a jig, or blocks or something that'd put the axles at the final height once the tires would be mounted.

Set up the rear suspension of the car, you'll know you've hit the right frame height in the rear when the very middle section of your front crossmember reaches your desired caster angle. Lock in the rear height and pinion angle, TACKING everything in place!

Then you go back to the front, lift the bones up until the caster on your kingpins matches the caster angle of the front crossmember, then you've got a bind free spring set up and your at the desired caster.

If you ignore the engineered ride height, you can end up binding up your front spring using the bones to correct the caster. This is why companies invented adjustable spring perches and fully adjustable 4 links and blah blah blah...

It's because when people just put the puzzle together the way they think it's supposed to go without fully understanding the engineering going on, they end up with a frunkied up car that only adjustable thingies can fix! hahah

Follow?

 

Yeah I got ya DZ.Well things gotta out of hand so I had to wind up ordering different things for the build.I talked to Jerry at P&J and he told me HOW to make it easier on this build,lose the split bones and go with those radius rods you have laying around.The dropped arm you will want is 1 3/8,the same he used on his build.So I ordered that and a set of hair pin brackets too.I will have to wait for the rest of the stuff to come in to re-start again,but at least I have a better direction.I wanted to use a 1 inch drop arm but after he saw my pics he said that front end hasnt dropped yet.Radius rods will work just fine,better flex too.

 

NEW TIRES ARE HERE...NEW TIRES ARE HERE..!!!! I called Coker last Monday and they said phone problems had them down the whole weekend.I placed my order on Monday and BAM...!!! Wednesday THEY were here..!!!!!!! One problem though....I forgot to order tubes.!!! I called 11 different tire stores here in Michigan and NOTHING..!!!! Some of the kids didnt even know wth I was talking about..!!! "Tubes,like for bike tires.?".Dear Lord....BUT at least the rears are here with the fronts to follow next week..!!I am going to sleep on them tonight....

 

Love the wheel / tire combo!

RGG

 

lookin good!

 

Ok..spent the batter part of the day re-doing the brakes and re-installing front end parts.Now the fun begins..!! I un-pack everything for the rear end from Eric..( Pete and Jakes rear ladder bar kit..) and start off.I cut the brackets in half so I could fit them around the axle as instructed.Now in the pics you will notice what I have.I am worried about the huge gap at the bottom of the brackets.I wont have any problems,will I..? I figure welding them will take up the gap.The bars are spaced evenly apart..about 2 inches from the inside of the frame and the rear end sits back and 7 inches from where the kick-up starts.Take a looky and let me know...Oh..rear end is about 3 degrees upward.

 

Ok..so I tacked everything into place.Now I know I need that Posie 3058 spring for the rear BUT man..almost 300 dollars..??Isnt there an alternative I can use..?? I hate being Jewish here but thats a LOT of money...

 

DAMN CHOPT TOP KID..EXCELLENT info man!!!!!!!!!!!!!....This helps me out quite a bit.I did post in Tommys build I found a 37-to 41 spring BUT I think its a front spring from Speedway.Anyone else know who might carry that spring..?

 

THEYRE CAN NEVER BE TOO MANY COUPE BUILDS every one is different and you learn something from every one

 

37-41 front springs are commonly used on the rear....but they might be hard to find for a decent price and in use-able shape. Not to mention it probably has a way higher arch than the one you were gonna order from Posies.

My advice, if you know that one from Posies is gonna work to give you the correct ride height, I'd bite the bullet and buy that spring. It's gonna ride nicer than any old used spring you're gonna track down.

I'm not sure if the Posies spring you mentioned has reversed or stock eyes, but I'd recommend going with the stock eyes...a little easier to spread and it'll make the frame sit a bit higher.

Sometimes you'll want to lower or raise your car after you see it all fully mocked up with weight on it. I think it's easier and cleaner to lower your frame with a stock eye spring by removing a leaf or two, than to try to raise it up with a reversed eye spring. Raising blocks are ugly, and adding leafs will stiffen your car up too much.

Steve

 

ps. Wait till you start pricing gauges! LOL

 

LMAO..you bastard....

 

YEAH...NEW PARTS are here...NEW parts are here..!!!!!!!!!!!!!! About TIME..!! I have been going crazy waiting for parts and FINALLY a few arrived and NOW I can fire up the heater in the garage and work my azz off..!! I want to thank a few peeps....TOMMY R,thanks man...without you asking Tood from Posie's about making those brackets I would have had to figure out a way to cut down a pair..saved me a BIG headache...Thank you STEVE from Thompsons Garage and the help with a spring..Now I have to wait for the GD weekend.. !! Oh yeah..I took pics of my stuff...GF just walked away shaking her head...LMAO..Now I gotta go order my steering arms..She wonders why guys take pics of there parts..?? I dont know,kinda of a bonding thing I guess...LOL.

 

OK..let me get this straight.I am installing my rear spring this weekend and what I have read on other posts is to install it this way..( anyone with a better idea,PLEASE let me know...).Now my spring is 42 1/2 long.Now I read that you ADD 4 to 5 inches onto that measurement and this is the measurement you use to weld your spring hangers ( brackets...) to the rear axle..So I need to measure 46 1/2 inches and then weld the brackets at this measurement...correct.? Then take the spring apart and use the main leaf and a method to SPREAD the spring so I can put the shackles on,then put the rest of the spring back together..correct..?If I have left anything out....PLEASE let me know...Thanks guys.

 

Sounds like a crap shoot the way you're going to try it...just remember to tack things.

When the weight of the complete car is on the spring, and the spring is mounted on the axle and the frame....your shackles should be at a 45 degree angle or close to that.

Here's how I'd do it...take from it whatever you want.

Put the rear axle under the frame with the tires on it, jack the frame up close to the height that it looks like it's gonna sit at. Get the axle situated square in the frame, roll it to the right pinion angle, and block it up there so it doesn't roll or move around.

Then get a spring spreader, spread the spring so it goes flat in the middle, and that way you can bolt it up to the frame. Let the spring spreader off the spring and then let it hang at that arch. Put your shackles half way between 0 and 45. Mock the spring hangers on the axle at whatever width you have now. You'll have to make final adjustments on the axle there, moving it forward or backward to get the hangers in the right spot. You also might have to move the frame up or down and make sure that when your hangers go on the axle, you're not binding the shackles. Tack the hangers and the gussets on your rear axle, making all your measurements so that the hangers are in the exact same spot, side to side on the axle.

Then, mount your spring in the hangers, you might have to use the spreader again to move the spring just a touch. Then let the weight of the frame down, and it should get you half way between 22.5 and 45. Add the weight of the body and the motor and all the extras and you should be pretty close to your 45 there. The spring will settle over time too.

Or, do it your way and hope that you land at the right angle. Either way, you can't neglect your rear pinion angle, has to be bang on, because if you adjust it later, you'll bind that rear spring. Helps to have at least one extra set of hands.

Good luck and have fun!

 

Ok...Maybe it was working 31 hours in 2 days but I am lost on what your saying DZ.I dont have access to a spring spreader...cant find no one in Michigan I can use either.Now my axle if squared in the frame due to the fact that I installed my ladder bars and brackets already.Pinion angle is 3 degrees,pointed up.Now....am I supposed to take the spring apart and only use the main leaf to do mock up..?I didnt understand the part about bolting the spreader and spring to the axle..sorry,but being this my first build of this kind I dont really understand some things...sorry.

 

Build a spreader

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18349&highlight=spreader+spring

And yes, you really only need the main leaf to mock things up. Also, the pinion means nothing until you get the engine and tranny set in place. Lots of variables that need to work together.

 

A model A coupe or what ever build is always interesting and most of us learn something from each build that comes along. I'll be following along on this one for sure.

 

Yeah he's right too, and you could use those measurements and just tack your hangers on the axle at that distance.

You would still benefit from having the spreader though. I'd use the full pack and a spreader so that you can see your actual frame height as your working on it. You can make a spreader easy, do a search on here.

It's hard for me to explain my suggestion any other way, I've done it that way and it worked perfect, but I understand it my own head better than I can say it and explain it someone else.

Try chop top kids way, tack the hangers and gussets on your axle at whatever measurement your spring manufacturere says, use the spreader to mount the spring on the rear end and the frame. Let the spreader off and see where you sit. If you're shackles are hanging halfway between 22.5 and 45 degrees, side to side, with an empty frame and no body on there, you're good. If you're way over 45 degrees, you gotta widen your hangers a bit to adjust and vice versa if your shackles are looking almost flat.

Don't forget that your hangers have to be at the same angle, front to back, that your shackles are at, so you don't bind the shackles up when you bolt it together.

Hopefully you're getting this. haha. All I can suggest, if you don't follow, to pick up a good book on how to assemble and build hot rods that use the same stuff you're using.

I think you'll understand everything better when you start doing it. And if you tack everything, you can make minor adjustments the second time around. It's a real learning process and until you do it, it's hard to understand all the pieces of the puzzle.

 

I got what answers I needed today by talking to Todd at Posie.The spring I am using..( 2040 ) is a FRONT spring and CAN NOT be stretched like other springs.The "3058" and the "AJH40NH" spring does need to be spread apart for hanging.Those springs have high a HIGH arch to them while mine doesnt.Mine is put in just like a front spring with the shackles at 22 degrees then they will lower to 45 degrees when all is said and done.I guess you have to live and learn which by me is a GREAT teaching tool.I have learned a ton from my "HAMB" teachers.

 

Im considering running rear leaf springs on my 31 with a full 32 frame any thoughts?

 

Well its been a while due to several problems that came up during the build...Lets hope I can get these figured out QUICKLY..!! Well I installed the spring and took weight off the car.You will notice in the pics that the shackles are almost at 45 degrees...well close enough to bother me.Maybe 22 degrees but maybe I am wrong.Now the brackets are only tack welded for right now.Next came time to finish installing the rear ladder bars..Hmmmm...another problem rears its ugly head.As you can see in the pics the ladder bar brackets seem to be WAY TOO far away from the rear end.So I spun them out and guess what..? Not enough thread but an 8th of an inch in the tube...THIS isnt going to work..!? Ok,quick call to Eric form Riley to get an answer...waiting...waiting...waiting...Finally Eric answers me and tells me the frame should measure 52 1/2 inches from the rear most cross member to the rear spring mount.Well guess what..? Its 54 inches.Hmmm..He told me they started mounting the rear spring pad farther back and I guess at this point he forgot and sent me frame without the proper ladder bar brackets.Well this wont work so he tells me he will send me a NEW set of brackets that will work...waiting...waiting...waiting..nothing.I send another e-mail...waiting.Ok,I hear nothing and nothing comes in the mail.Now I am stumped on what to do.I get a few ideas while I am on the road doing my job and figure out I will try them when i get home.I take some 3/8ths plywood and make some temp.brackets to take to the laser cutter and have them make me a set.Hmm..150.00 dollars to make a set..has to make a file..send it to the machine...blah,blah,blah.Ok..I go through the scrap pile at work and find some 3/8ths and mark out my own set to make..Now I start thinking....I might just cut the rear most crossmember and move it back the 1 1/2 inches I need and not spend so much time trying to make a new set of brackets.Feedback would be MOST welcome...!!!

 

Man....that's exactly what I told you to do! I donno if I'm my explanations are more complicated than they have to be or what??!?! Except for the "not using a spreader part"....you still gotta use one or you're gonna have problems.

Even though your spring is not a high arch spring, it still has to be flattened out in between your u bolts when you're done bolting it up...Because of the wide style mounting pad on your rear crossmember, you need alot of frickin force to flatten that sucker out...even though it might not look like that...everything is under tension there...big time.... If you continue to crank on those bolts without using a spreader you're going to A. bend u bolts...pulling them inwards towards the middle of the frame or.... B. bend that mounting pad...yes it can be bent even though it's pretty thick...I've done it

Then you're gonna have a car that sits tilted. Not to make you paranoid, but you really do have to watch out for that stuff. Just because somebody tells you something at the manufacturer, doesn't mean it's %100 correct either. Now....if you had a small mounting pad where the u bolts were close together, like in the front, then you wouldn't have to use a spreader.

Trust me, I've made this mistake and it's annoying and painful to correct. Just figure out a spreader, it aint that difficult, use it to take the tension off your u bolts when unbolting after mockup, and use it again to put it back on the car.

-Steve

 

And as Chop Top Kid said...your spring hangers are definately on there upside-down. If you leave them as is, your shackles are going to smash into your hangers when you go over a bump.

Think about it....hit a bump...spring compresses...shackles swing well past the 45 degree mark and they run into your bracket. If they're on the right way, the shackles are free to move through the arch.

 

Sorry to keep going on and on here, but you gotta take control of the direction this thing is headed in...it's gonna get ugly if you start hacking and modifying.

Get the right ladder bar brackets from the frame maker...simple. You paid alot of money for that frame and the parts to assemble it....the idea being that the fucking thing is right. I hate when suppliers fuck up and then leave you hanging when you wanna get cracking. It's really really really really not acceptable.

DO NOT start hacking your frame....not at all! What happens if you move that ladder bar mount backwards, and then it fails on you some day on the highway....EXTREMELY dangerous situation.....

Plus, the manufacturer ain't going to warranty any workmanship if you start messing with their design. It's like when you send a tool away to be warrantied....if they see you opened it up and tried to fix it yourself, you're shit out of luck.

If I were you, I'd get pissed and get that shit straight with the manufacturer. Not only that, I'd be looking for a few little goodies to keep me happy and make up for their mistake.

YOU'RE THE BOSS...YOU PAID...GET THEM TO MAKE IT RIGHT!

 

You guys SURE about those hangers..?!?!? I checked with the install instructions and thats how they say to install them....

 

If that's what's on the instructions...then that really confuses me. I've never seen them mounted on the axle that way, on any car I've ever seen. Was that the instructions that the frame builder gave you? If so, I'd be getting them on the phone again and questioning that as well. They may have some weird reasoning behind setting them up that way...I donno....Maybe your shackles will never go that far, but I would not be setting them up the way you got em.

If you turn em right side up...or what I believe to be right side up....you're probably gonna end up lowering the car a bit too.

Can you post a better pic showing the tube part of the bracket that your bushings go in....so I can see how it's welded to the straight part of the bracket.

If the tube is offset towards the middle of the car, there will be less chance of your shackles hitting.