Quoteaul......Perhaps the answer to the inconsistant description and photos is that there were two Maxwell engines. Borgeson talks about the 1914 SOHC Maxwell with rockers in "The Golden Age", and a 1916 DOHC Maxwell in "Twin Cam" with a shaft cam drive........ Paul Quote: Jim....... I would have thought that Ray Harroun would have straightened out the discrepancy as there were several articles written on the one cam. When I get some time I will have to go back through some stuff......... Jim & Paul..... Do either of you know of any photos of the earlier SOHC engine or other information? Thanks to both of you. I have included this overhead photo which clearly shows what I and Paul were trying to explain. It is clearly a DOHC. I also found time to get out my friend Joe Freeman's article in A.Q. on the Maxwells and he states that during the winter of 1915-16 Harroun guided the DOHC being designed and built. This photo is from the Davis Collection.
Quote Paul: Yes, I looks like it. Are you saying the entire top end is a reproduction ? Paul....... No what Bob was trying to explain is Ed Roy only had the top half and since it was such a very worthy project, he made a new bottom half for it. There is an article in the VMCCA Bulb Horn, I would guess from the sixties where he tells all about it.
David, it is clear from your earlier pic of the frontal view that the Maxwell from 1916 was a DOHC, this latest picture just validates it further. With the shaft drive on this pic below being right in line with the cam this may be the SOHC?? I may have other pics I do not know. Little time to look though (I must confess to stealing a moment from work to see what you guys are talking about but little time for me to do any digging). Your version of the 1920 Monroe seems to be in line with what I remember. I corresponded with Ed on this topic and he claimed he found some of the parts and built the rest (he was an amazing craftsman-just look at his miniature racers he built-unbelievable guy). I do not believe he ever claimed it to be the 1920 winning engine-he may have told you differently- I do not know. Paul, every time I see that Chalmers DOHC I kick myself. I had a big six Chalmers touring (1913). I later sold it to Matt Browning and we became friends to an extent after he bought it. The car was unbelievably fast-I used to drive it effortlessly at 70mph on the freeway. The engine had never been apart since 1913 and even had portions of the interior that were original. One of the best cars I have ever driven. I got it from my grandfather who worked at Chalmers in 1913 in the engine department. His job was working on vibration and one of his specialties was working with gears and getting the engines to rev higher than the norm. He used this "expertise" if that is what it was to also get a job in the experimental department at Packard. For awhile he worked at both Chalmers and Packard (he said at that time it was not all that unusual to work at two auto plants). At Packard he worked on the Liberty development but also the racercars to a limited extent. His best friend in the department was Carl Smith who was a real racing nut and they worked in tandem on some of the projects. A couple of years ago I met Carl Smith's great grandson on the HAMB and we have become friends. The first time I saw this Chalmers engine I figured my grandfather probably knew of it and maybe he worked on it. I asked him many questions on the Packard racers, I only wish I had run across this Chalmers before he died. It is not surprising to me that Chalmers built such an engine. Paul also as to the Frontenac picture you refer to in Borgeson's Twin Cam book that raised more questions than answers to me. I always wanted to track down more history on that iron engine (if it is in fact an iron engine-I am giving GB the benefit of the doubt but I am not totally convinced as of yet). If it was, I suppose I would be more convinced if that picture was with the engine in his first car he completed in late fall of 1915. The fact that the engine is in one of this 1916 cars (that he campaigned thru 1919) makes me question the date of 1916 that Borgeson states. From what I can gather Louis Chevrolet's experiments were with aluminum in 1915. I was hoping that you could point me in a new direction where I could see that he did build an iron engine in 1914 or early 1915 or whatever. I had a copy of that picture of the DOHC cam engine in the 1916-1919 chassis for thirty years or so (I may have gotten it from Ed Roy-not sure) and I always thought it may be sometime in 1919 with some experimentation with a prototype of the new 183 Frontenac engine to be used in 1920 (but that was nothing but a guess on my part with little if anything to back up my guess). Planche may have very well designed this iron engine as he was extremely capable but I would certainly like to read it for myself. Someday I would love to see a real definitive history of Frontenac. They were great racing cars but are often overlooked in history. Better get to work-Jim
Gee, David, your new avatar is confusing! Shouldn't you change your username to match? Clyde W. "Tiny" Gilbert was a racer from Colorado, late twenties til WW2. Raced mainly independent events, IMCA, CSRA and a few AAA. I have nothing on Harry Beckett. Steigers appeared quite regularly in German events, 1921 to '26. I am guessing this is Kurt Volkhart at Nideggen in 1922. He was 1st overall and in class 4 for "18 PS" cars, maximum displacement 4712 cc.
Jim.... Thanks so much, now that defiantly looks like the SOHC described in the Automobile article. I am busy in the shop today but I have to study this exciting photo later. When you have a chance to uncover anything more please post. Best T-H
Three Questions. 1. Why in 152x thread pages are there only 6x references to Pike's Peak Hillclimb? 2. Is hillclimbing not auto racing? 3. Are these not rhetorical questions?
No disrespect to you Paul, but that has to be the worst version of the film i've seen on the tube. It looks like the person who made it added some of his own text and filmed the whole thing from his desk totally disrespecting the original film maker. Recently we have been discussing the incorrect captioning of old photos and how much confusion it causes, well, this film is no exception. As Michael pointed out, it is indeed the Sheepshead Bay track but if one were to search the web they would find differing stories in regards to this film. When it first appeared it was always assumed to be filmed at Daytona in the 1920s but as the years passed some good meaning folks, no doubt after finding a Daniel Statnekov article about the biggest race of 1919 at Sheepshead Bay, decided to settle on that story even though Statnekov never mentions the film. The fact is nobody really knows when the film was shot and not much is known of Mr. Marik. Most of the good motorcycle sites have strayed away from speculation unlike those that only cater to the reality TV show flavor of the month bikes. Anyway, thats my beef. BTW, If any dirt track guys are reading this, Greg Weld's father also raced boardtracker's in the '20s as did Ralph Hepburn.
Welcome to the HAMB mate. Great pic, we need some more info. Jim, does that look like a gum tree in the background? Even the house resembles something typically Australian.
It is not surprising to me that Chalmers built such an engine. Jim- I am amazed that it could be from 1913 and never mentioned in any of the books I've seen. It looks very modern with enclosed valve gear. Where did it race, did it go up Pike's Peak ? Planche may have very well designed this iron engine as he was extremely capable but I would certainly like to read it for myself. Someday I would love to see a real definitive history of Frontenac. They were great racing cars but are often overlooked in history. Jim- I agree, especially if it had 4 valves, finger followers and a 38 degree VIA. It almost seems like the iron engine was dreamed up to give Planche more credit than Van Ranst for the Indy winners. More of that "history written by the victors" stuff. Who ever did it, they were reaching far into the future, although I don't know how much it mattered at those crank speeds and compressions. Paul
There may be a small number of posts in regards to Pike's Peak but there are other Hillclimb references throughout. If you like, start a discussion here. You can also checkout another thread here on the HAMB that lost some of it's fuel. www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375086&highlight=pike+peak
... I'd just like to find a good profile shot of the body to fudge some measurements of the tail! I have the Aurora model of the Monroe Spl, but it's really inaccurate (tail is much too short) and the only other model out there is the Etzel resin, which is gorgeous... but around $200 (MAN I wish he would go back into production). If anyone has a good side view of the factory Frontys, please share! Thanks, Bill
Someone asked several pages back about photos of Harry Miller at the 1906 Vanderbilt. There is a good one in the Miller Dynasty. And another on Howard Kroplicks Vanderbilt site. I can't keep up with all the great stuff on this thread ! Back to the day job...
Forgot about this drwing of the Monroe Spl that I found a while back, but the tail doesn't seem to match the lines of the Haughdal/Cody pics:
Thanks Kurtis, I checked out the thread on Pike's Peak, and as you said, it sort of ran out of fuel. I have formed the opinion over the last few years that little early photographic history was ever collected there. If it was then it may well have been lost. I guess the problem could have been that the venue was isolated, uncomfortable, dusty, and too difficult to move around when attending. The event would also have been like most hillclimbs, pretty slow moving for the spectator or photographer. And of course it only happened once a year. I think it may be true to say that most of the automobile companies didn't get behind it, because the majority of vehicles, certainly winning cars were serious hot rods and definitely mongrels. Then the drivers come into focus. Check out old "Wild Bill" Endicott in the photo. Probably a nice fella, but after all, just one of the dirt brigade. What do you reckon? Cheers Jim
I haven't looked recently at the site(s) where Pike's Peak archive photos had been made available, but here are some Packards I don't believe Jim or I have previously posted or commented on. The first photo dates to 1926, and shows a lineup that includes the Packards in the other three photos. The next photo is of the Acacia Special, a 3rd series twin six. The last two photos are of a model 38 or 48 (six), penned in on the Artemis copy as Old Ironsides (Rab Mason at wheel), and labeled the Cliff House Special in the last photo.
Twin Six, I have seen reference to Old Ironsides but I must admit ignorance to the other Packards. Feel free to chime in with some of the history. Mac, I saw your earlier request for a good side shot of the bulbous Frontenac from the early twenties and found nothing that great. I have some 3/4 type shots but nothing that would help you scale the tail section. I too have a little model of the 1920 Frontenac but never paid too much attention to the actual authenticity of the tail section. If I run into a good pic I will post it. You may check Wallen's Board Track book as I seem to remember he had several pics of the Frontenacs from 20 and 21. Paul as to Chalmers just so you don't think I have lost my mind I too am surprised by the claimed date of 1912 or even 1913. My reference to not being too surprised was due to my admiration for the engine they produced. I have driven a pretty fair number of cars from that era and although I rate the Packard Twin Six right at or near the top overall, I would have to say that every time I drove the 1913 Chalmers I was thoroughly impressed. In addition my grandfather told me that they worked extremely hard in the engine department to improve the power and performance so it was no surprise how well the car performed. That being said, being the skeptic I am, I would certainly like to find out more about the claims they make at the Museum of Speed (1912 or even 1913 would be pretty heady stuff). Of course there were overhead cams before Les Charlatans came along but they perfected it I suppose. If Chalmers gurus could prove they built this DOHC in 1912 I am sure we may hear from the grave some choice French swear words in retort. As to not reading it in any of the books you have a point to an extent but then again I have not read the real definitive history of the early Millers, nor have I read much on the 199 c.i. or 299 c.i. Milacs (a little thanks recently to Lee Stohr and I few little blurbs I have but overall not much) and then how much have we read on which engine the Book brothers put in the Detroit Special that is more than simple guesswork, and I could go on and on. Even though we collectively have done a herculean job at unraveling some of the early OHC mysteries we still have many more to solve and even then to know for certain, we may have to wait for that ultimate bench racing session on a fluffy cloud.-Jim
Perhaps because they are completely different cars? I have to admit that I can't be too sure of the Haugdahl car, but it looks like it could be one of the 1916 racers rebodied, but if you look at the frame you can see that the two cars have nary a thing in common!
Time to show some great early Giants Despair Hill Climb photos that Kurtis was kind enough to share with me a while back, but first a little back ground. Giants Despair Hill Climb is held just outside of Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, in Laurel Run Borough on East Northampton Street. This community has been host to this event since it was first held in 1906. It is one of the oldest continuing motor racing events in the world. Giants is rich in tradition. In its early years, all of the worlds major manufacturers sent their top cars and drivers to capture honors at the event. Early notables included Ralph DePalma (Fiat Team) and Louis Chevrolet driving for Buick. Rejuvenated in 1951, the list of Whos Who in the driving world included Carroll Shelby (first driver to brake the magic minute), Roger Penske and Oscar Koveleski. The Hill starts out with a long gently rising straight about one quarter mile in length that leads into a fast left hander that tests both nerves and skill. Then on to a short chute and “Devils Elbow,” a sharply rising hairpin that goes off camber at its crest. Next is a series of ninety-degree turns connected by short straights. Then comes “The Incline,” a meandering quarter-mile stretch that rises at twenty-two degrees to the finish. I have driven up it and it is quite a climb. Photos two, three and four a couple of some the countries best cars of the time a Chadwick and two Matheson's. Both were made in Pennsylvania. A few good links; http://www.pahillclimb.org/Courses/Giants.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_Despair_Hillclimb Great video below that is modern but it gives you a wonderful perspective of the hill. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu26EK-29kM
Bill, There were a lot of Frontenac photos about a year ago here on the HAMB. Do a search on Fronty Radiator or any posts by Harms Way. We never did find out for sure were his radiator was from.
Bill as to the Frontenacs, I am not sure which tail you are after. The Cody pic may have some similarities in the shape of the 1916 Frontenac tail section but it also has some differences in the overall bodywork. The cockpit area is cut down further than the Frontenacs I believe and the cowl appears to be flatter. The same metalman may have made both who knows. The 1920 cars I believe have little in common to the bodywork of the 300 inch cars, tail section included. As I said I cannot lay my hands on a full side view of the 1920 cars if that is what you are looking for. The Library of Congress has a couple of photos but do not remember a good tail shot. If you could find one of those the quality is very good. I also found some stuff at a University of Michigan website dealing with Michigan stuff mainly,also good quality. May be something there. Louis had a shop at 3939 Grand River in Detroit before he moved his operation to Indy. He probably built some 300 inch cars in Michigan but I believe the 1920 cars were assembled in Indy (and as soon as I say that someone may point out they were built at Small's place). The first three pics are of the 300 inch cars-Louis's car in the first two and then Mulford in 1919 I believe. Then there is the 1920 wreck of Gaston's car where he was killed. Probably the best pic of the shorter tail but not that great for a side view to reproduce to scale. The last pic is Mulford's 21 car I believe and I include it to show how different the car is from the 300 inch cars-Jim
------ Psalt, Thanks so much for posting the YouTube link to the Indian motorcycles on the board track. I tested the link before posting it, but somehow after posting it didn't work. I thought the value of it was showing the size and scope of some of the early board tracks as well as the speed. Thanks again. JG
Jim, I think you are correct in everything you said but of all the Hillclimb's in the States, Pike's Peak is by far the most famous. I say that only because information is relatively easy to obtain unlike the other events that took place from the turn of the century up to the 1950s and well, it's just a mystical place with a one of a kind course that doesn't exist anywhere. If you look at the results in the U.S. from 1905 to 1930 for example, most events like Giants Despair Hillclimb attracted a big car count with four to five class's based on engine size and what the automobile was worth followed by a trophy run unlike Pike's Peak which had on average two or three class's, for eg; under 231ci and over 231ci. So combining that with the overall isolation of the venue, i'd say it was one of the smaller events of the day and not even a hardened journalist or photographer would of taken much interest in it much less any manufacturer, the latter more interested in the many oval track races. Having said all that, there have been many famous names risk everything racing up that mountain. I just looked at the results from 1919 where Ralph Mulford, Hughie Hughes, Barney Oldfield and Neil Whalen were all in attendance but just like Bill Endicott, the dirt ovals were their bread and butter. The Unser family also did quite well. Hillclimbs are great places to go to, where else can one go and see the many Frankenstein's all in one place. Later... K.. BTW, great photos T6. I especially like the Acacia Spl. It looks like something brought over from Brooklands.
Yes i know posted before......but some of the most iconic pictures ever taken, and at a venue that is in it's 106th year this year. . .
Anyone who's thinking of building a FWD Special or is interested in the Alvis racing cars from 1925 - 1931, checkout this site. Great info and drawings. www.hells-confetti.com/
An Essex 4 special competing circa 1920 at Spread Eagle Hillclimb, UK. A 0.75 mile hillclimb near Shaftesbury, used in the 1920s. Who is the driver?
Very good article in Automoblie Topics about the famous Dead Horse Hillclimb in 1909. I have driven a car up this hill in a reinactment years ago and it is a very tough and steep one mile climb.
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