Am I outdated? When is an 'offer' actually an 'offer'?

I had a horizontal bandsaw I was selling once - my sister in laws neighbor wanted it and asked if I'd take XX dollars for it. I said sure it's yours. Next day he offers LESS for it to which I say No Thanks! At this point he expects it for the original offer to which I also say No Thanks. He now is a little miffed and says, but we had a deal! To which I reply, if we had a deal why did you drop your offer??? it seems we didn't have a deal - did we? I'm all for keeping your word, but don't jack me around and expect me to not get ticked.

In the end I ended up just giving the saw to a buddy of mine. No grief - no drama.

Another time a fella I know asks me if I'm interested in buying his widget. I say sure I'm interested, what do you want for it? He tells me - and I say I'll take it. We were supposedly friends so I figure it's a done deal right?? I never did get it even though I never dropped the ball. no doubt he got a better offer.

Sometimes it just isn't worth the hassle to deal with these types.
In this case (original post) I agree- the wording could have been clearer on both sides. Coming to look something over is NOT the same as saying "I'll take it" and certainly is not the same as the seller saying "it's a deal". A deal is a deal when BOTH parties agree.

By buddy bought a house on a handshake deal right before he went on vacation. When he got back he filled out the paper work and paid the man. So obviously there still are a few around who will honor their word - they're just getting tougher to come by nowadays.

My hats off to those of you who keep your word!!!

EDIT: BTW an OFFER is simply that.

What are talking about here - the part where people get miffed is when we are talkign about a DEAL.

A DEAL is made up of an OFFER plus the ACCEPTANCE of that offer. Once the 2 minds meet we have a DEAL. That still doesn't always work, but it should be enough if people are "man enough" to KEEP their WORD. But that's a whole nuther issue all together!

 

I sell cars for a living. That guy was what we call in the business " Jerking you off".

If he'd been truly serious about the car he would've found a way to convey his seriousnes to you (I.E. a deposit or even saying he would take it).

 

Sold my wifes brother-inlaw an off topic T-Bird as is for $800.00. A guy shows up in my driveway while he is there to pick it up and offers me $1500.00 for the car. As I had already told the brother-inlaw he had it for $800.00 I turned to him and said to sell it to the guy for $1500.00 and make a quick $700.00 for doing nothing! Brother-inlaw kept it though and drove it for years....

 

95% of the responses here are flat out wrong, maybe for good reasons, but just wrong. If you are angry enough about this type of thing or have a little interest in what the law were to say, take a look at this overly-technical analysis. I’ll also say in advance that while the legal perspective may not seem all that important when dealing with a $500 Craigslist item, it could become very important when dealing with the sale of $90,000 custom. But even with a $500 item everyone should think about acting ethically – doing the right thing – even if others have not treated them so in the past.<o></o>

First point.
THE LAW OF CONTRACTS says that a firm offer to sell, when clearly accepted, is legal binding upon both parties. It doesn’t matter whether or not the offer and acceptance is by email, telephone call or email; and it doesn’t matter if there is a handshake or deposit put down. Unless the agreement (contract) itself requires a deposit, then failing to provide one can’t void the contract simply at the seller’s discretion. <o></o>

In even more detail, an offer and acceptance to sell/buy not need to have every single element included or agreed upon. It must have sufficient “material” elements to understand that the buyer and seller have reached a “meeting of the minds” as to the transaction. And when something is missing, for example, the type of payment to be made, the law then says that the type must be “reasonable” and what would normally expected under typical circumstances. In other words, the buyer couldn’t show up and pay in Japanese Yen, but he could probably reasonably come with a cashier’s check instead of cash.<o></o>

You might respond that a typical sale of a $2000 car there would “reasonably” be expected a deposit to be put down. However, a deposit would be what is called a material "condition precedent” related to partial payment under the an agreement and could not be presumed or reasonably expected, but would have to be specifically requested by the seller and agreed upon the buyer. The failure to ask for a deposit means the seller could not expect one.<o></o>

IN THIS CASE there was indeed clearly “offer and acceptance” with basically only two conditions needed to be met before the seller was required to provide the car. And those were 1) full payment by the buyer, and 2) that the payment had to be made on (or before) the weekend when the buyer was to come over. The buyer had no other obligation – he didn’t need to swing by to look at the car or leave a deposit. In the meantime, the seller had an absolute duty under the existing contract to not sell the car in the meantime. Doesn’t matter that he might have been offered cash or even twice as much. From the buyer’s perspective, he had a perfectly good reason to rely upon the seller’s representation that he had sold the car to him.<o></o>

THE RESULT is that the seller could be sued for breach of contract and would be responsible to the buyer for damages – the lost value of the transaction to the seller. (Which is not the same thing as sale amount. Sometimes, as in this case, it is hard to establish exactly what those damages are.) Suing the seller is not going to happen over a $2,000 sale, but it becomes a real possibility with an expensive car, particularly one that is highly customized and can’t just be replaced with another car of the same make and model.<o></o>

Second point.
EVERYONE HAS BEEN BURNED by the joker who doesn’t show up or the guy who says, “yeah, I’ll pay you that” and then shows up only to offer something less. It is infuriating because its totally disrespectful of people who stand by what they say. This seems to be what is driving a lot of people to say they have no sympathy for the buyer here, even though he did nothing wrong. But the fact that you have been burned should not make you become someone who also doesn’t honor their word. In fact, it should make you all the more resolved to continue to act in an ethical and honorable manner.<o></o>

The Main Point.
ONCE BURNED, TWICE AS SHY. Nearly everyone said that “cash is king”. Of course it is. And knowing that, a transaction like the one described here should have the seller simply saying, “I will accept an offer to buy IF you are the first one over here to pay me that $1500 or drop off a deposit of $300 and get the rest to me by the weekend.” If the buyer balks and says I can’t get over until next week, just politely explain that from experience you’ve learned that it doesn’t make sense to hold off selling until a buyer is there with payment or a deposit at the ready. Not only does that protect you, but it may actually allow you to tell other possible buyers that you won’t go below $1750 because you’ve got a strong prospect of a buyer next week. A number of responders said they have learned to protect themselves in this way simply by putting such language in their ads.

Hell, I'm not a preachy guy. Obviously I'm a lawyer and I'll represent either side in a dispute like this, but I can tell you how the judge will look at it. More importantly, you should remember, "Do unto others . . . ."
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I was reading this thinking this mofo must be a lawyer......

 

Sounds good, but what if a business selling a single item (say a floor model) gets a caller saying they will be over tomorrow to buy the item? Does the business have to honor this guy, or are they able to sell to the first customer with cash in the store?
What can a seller do to prevent this from happening, state all terms up front?
As many have said, there was a lack of communication on both sides. However, the looker (I still can't call him a buyer) chose to limit the ability of the seller to contact him. The buyer had multiple avenues to contact in the ad.

 

Yeah so can I, ........ nothing in writing?.......case dismissed.........next !

 

Wow, if a seller says that they'll take less than their asking price, that constitutes a legally binding contract?? Holy moly, our legal system is more screwed up than I thought!!

 

fucking lawyers. talk about full of shit.

 

Just because you are a lawyer doesnt mean you ever won a case !!!!

 

Actually his argument is reasonable except for one key thing, as someone else noted, if you can't prove it in court, you're shit outta luck - and if it's not written down it comes to your word against theirs. Now I'm not a lawyer but I have watched The People's Court and Judge Judy a few times. The People's Court the judge there makes a point of stuff like that a lot.

And if you're truly worried about being sued, just tell people they don't have a firm deal until you have either A: a 10% deposit with say 10 days to pay you in full, or B: you are paid in full.

 

I still do business on a handshake...I always hope that someone will deal the same with me....I did contact a guy on Craigslist about a motor and some parts, 400 miles one way for me, I could not get out there until the weekend, but the seller assured me that he would hold the parts......I drove out early on a Sat., met him, and the parts were all he said they were.....he commented on the fact others had stood him up and he was suprized that I actually showed up......we got along great, and before I left he loaded me up with all kinds of other parts, and cut me a deal.......Craigs deals don't always turn out, but this one did.

 

So why did you even ask? You answered your own question.

An offer is an offer when offered. This would be before the contract or purchase phase.

The fact that you elected to by-pass an offer from someone and enter into the purchase phase with someone else without notifying the original offerer makes you uncomfortable for some reason.

 

RodStRace -

There are a bunch of new issues raised in your example of the telephone call to the business selling a single floor item, and some of those issues show why the law can be so confusing and not have clear cut answers all of the time. But you hit it dead-bang on the head when you said there was a lack of communication on both sides. Lack of communication between a buyer and a seller is what causes 90% of all of the problems.

And not only should the seller state all of the terms up front, but the buyer should want to do so as well. Everyone uses the internet and email now, so they can easily confirm any deal or telephone agreement by sending a simple message that says, “Joe – this is just to confirm that when we talked on the phone today you agreed to sell me the car and I agreed to come over on Saturday with $2,000 cash to pay for it. Please just shoot back an email saying this is indeed what we agreed to.” And include anything else you think is important, such as “and you said it would be alright if it took a couple of more days after I paid for me to get a tow truck out there to get it.” Things like that.

Get everything down in writing.

It will take a lot less time to do that up front than to straighten out the mess afterwards.

As for your specific example, I can’t give an exact answer and need to go back to the boring legalese to explain why not. Businesses selling to other business are one category (and come under what is called the Uniform Commercial Code), stores selling to consumers are another category (often controlled by the state’s Consumer Protection Act). An important factor in the example may be whether the business/store normally only sells to walk-in customers, in which case the phone call is not going to have any binding effect on anybody. Another possibly important factor in your example is that it was a floor model, as opposed to regular stock.

A lot of it goes back to whether or not the seller is making a “firm offer” to sell, or if it is what the law calls an “offer to negotiate”, which cannot be accepted by a potential buyer, but only countered with a firm offer to buy, which the seller can then accept.

For example, you could not call up a seller on Craigslist and when they answer the phone say, “I’ll take it at the price offered”, and have a binding agreement. Under the law the ad itself would only be considered an offer to negotiate. But when you then talk on the phone and say, I’ll buy it for that amount listed and the seller says, ok I’ll sell it for that amount, then there is a binding contract.

As I said before, the smaller the matter the less need there is for a lot of formality and confirmation, but with big dollar transactions you’ll see contracts that go several hundred pages. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

And for those who hate lawyers, for whatever reason, that’s fine. I don’t like dentists for a number of different reasons, but I’m still very grateful when they help fix my teeth and as a common courtesy I wouldn't call one an a**hole to his face. If you want respect in the market place, maybe consider starting right here with courtesy on the HAMB. I’m not personally bothered by it, I’ve been called much worse by people I respect, I just think there is too much flaming of others all over the HAMB and it would be nice to see some people exercise a little restraint when they don’t really have anything to contribute.

 

Hey, Gstross;

Thanks for posting the insight.

Would you please break this down a bit for me, I still don't get it, or I'm reading/looking at it wrong. Only looking for help on *my* perception(s) here... I *think* I get a good portion of the contract stuff, but still...

After re-re-re-reading O.P. 1st post, my take on what I'm seeing :

Landrover owner [ OP ] puts ad in Cl for ~$2000., asking.

Dude calls up, & *inquires* as to whether price is firm or not. Finds out it isn't, & *only asks* if $1500., would be acceptable. Finds out that *would be* acceptable.

OP doesn't indicate that Dude said he would actually give $1500., although that could be construed, by either one, if to their advantage, I suppose.

Dude says he'll be over to "look at" the LR on the weekend, but apparently didn't ask for either the time 'till he got there [right of 1st refusal] nor did he say I'll take it & it's sold @ that price. Nor apparently did OP offer any agreement on this, other than a reduction in price.

How does this get us [well, them] into a contract [meeting of the minds], via offer & acceptance? What am I missing from OP 1st post, much less a couple later?

Seems to me, that Dudes' inquiry, followed by a statement of what he was going to do, needed, at least, agreement by OP, to be "a meeting of the minds".

I get, that in a lot of instances, silence/not objecting can be [& often is] taken as agreement, [ie: among other things, adhesion contracts - & "that which calls itself govt." is great for this, but...kinda off-topic; for now.] but as you pointed out, CL is set-up as "offer to negotiate". & even if this "contract" *could* be construed into an adhesion contract, I'd think that if pushed, it'd be voidable, due to, at least, vagueness, much less no real meeting of the minds?

I also get, & *try* to live by, your word is honor & is good. Where did you see that OP agreed to terms Dude offered? Maybe I missed it, or mis-read. Which *seemed to me* rather open-ended, non-committing, & based entirely on "*if* I like what I see in LR, *then & only then*, I *might* give the inquired-upon price of $ 1500."

I'm kinda reading-in here, but I didn't see any mention of a [or offer of a] down payment, not even a legally-binding $1.00 USD. & what is/was/should've-been the "consideration" here ? Valuable, or other-wise.

Dude was ~ 15 mi from OP, so distance didn't appear to factor in, nor did am/pm time issues. Dude didn't leave contact #, nor verify by ph., or (e)mail, terms - agreed to or otherwise.

I've learned to verify, by ph &/or (e)mail, detail of deals, to make sure everyone's on the same page. Does make things easier, & still doesn't always work out, but the $$ costs aren't worth the effort arguing about deals that don't go down. There's always the next one...

Understand, I not pullin' for either one of these guys, just trying to get a better understanding in contracts.

I've also been burned on both sides of the deal(s), am almost to the point of rather crushing/scrapping than (attempting) to sell anything. [Except w/my very close friends] This is only a hobby, supposed to be for fun, & the liars/vultures/thief-types get old, real fast. Fortunately, karma exists... & functions when you expect it least... .

I'm not trying to be funny, a smart-ass, nor pick someone apart, just use this given example to learn from. I'm rather serious... & an in-depth explanation wouldn't hurt my feelings... .

TIA.

Marcus...

 

This may be a tad wordy but it's pretty accurate from state to state. I was taught this in my early teens turning over cars with my Dad. Contract law is also a basic high school class, or used to be.

Not really. There was no real "verbal agreement" or "meeting of the minds" as described in the reply or the OP. No matter how hard-nosed one wishes to be a deal is a deal and requires mutual considerations and conditions. Simple and effective, also shows mutual trust (or lack of) depending upon the terms. To me I'd say that anyone can assume a contract based on the 'idea' that it could be had for less, and frankly unless the OP deleted some of the conversation details there was no deal but the opportunity of a deal was made available. Again, real simple.


This is basic stuff kids. A deposit was given long ago on an expensive roadster. Someone came along and offered $20K more and the seller took the money. He wa fucked. The 1st purchaser had a contract via the deposit, receipt, and terms expressed on the receipt. Open and shut? Nope. It took over a year to get his car and the legal fees incurred to enforce the contract. Simple things can go bad in the blink of an eye.

 

I'm 34.

Money Talks.

Cash on the barrel head as my pops would say.

If you don't show up with the cash, next buyer please.

No one likes their time wasted or to be jerked around.

-W

 

To the lawyers, I have a question: what if the original potential buyer showed up and decided NOT to buy the vehicle? Would that potential buyer be legally OBLIGATED to buy it regardless?

 

You did the right thing .If i had a dollar for everytime i had someone tell me online that they were gunna come and look at a car i was selling ,i wouldnt need to sell anything ever again.Cash talks .I recently had a deal on another site for a pair of spring plates .I was looking through the parts for sale section and noticed that this guy had inquired about a set that another guy was selling.He had already sold his plates.I remebered that i had a set and pm'd the guy that if he needed them that bad i would sell him mine (since i didnt need them anyway).He immediatly said i'll take them.The guy lives in Canada and said he needs them right now .I said as soon as you send the $ you can have them.I boxed them up and got him a qoute on the shipping.He asked if i would send them today and wait on the money .I naturally said no.He then asked for my checking account # and he would wire me the $.I again said no ,becasue i dont do bussiness that way,and im not about to give someone i dont know my account # .He then got pissed and said he didnt trust me and was reluctint to deal with me ,because i wouldnt give him my bank account #,but would send the $.I inturn said i have a better idea ,just forget the whole thing ,and i dont need your money.You try and help someone out ,and this is what you get nowdays .I say keep doing bussiness like your doing ,you certainly sound like a straight shooter to me...

 

Like I said before, it HAS to be in writing, word of mouth ain't gonna cut it in court.

Yeah, me too...............

 

Shine the JERKS on. Ignor there bull.

 

Marcus/nrgwizard and theHighlander are right, that when in applying the law I talked about, in this case there does not appear to be a meeting of the minds. It would likely be a case where each claims different statements were made and each had a different understanding.

I was mostly trying to convey the law that applies in this area and point out that the quick reaction by many to not abide by promises made over the telephone or email because they have been burned in the past can be seen very differently under the court's eyes. But I certainly should have "re-re-re-read" OP's description more closely, as Marcus did. To the extent that I screwed up the application of what I described, I'm embarrassed, but I'm glad it was pointed out by people reading everything so closely.

No offense Marcus and theHighlander, but you guys ought to be lawyers!

 

whenever someone makes me an "offer" on the phone or via computer, it goes like this:

"well, will you take $1500 for it?"

"i don't know, you'd have to be here with $1500 in your hand and i guess we'd find out."

people are flakes. cash is cash and until cash makes it's way into the equation, there is no deal. period.

 

I agree with these guys only if you had agreed to wait until Saturday for the 1st guy. The 2nd guy who came along and offered the same money would have been told he was 2nd in line if the 1st guy did not take it. (as long as I had agreed to wait until Saturday). If the 2nd guy had offered more $$$ then I would have said that I would call the 1st guy (if I had agreed to wait until Saturday) and see if he would pay the same amount or more and if he didn't then the 2nd guy would be able to buy it. If the 1st guy had left a phone number and you did not say you would wait until saturday,then it would have at least warranted a phone call to let him know that someone else was there wanting to buy it and 1st guy had 1st dibs,but it would be more of a courtesy call. If nothing was agreed to and I did not know the 1st guy nor did I have a phone number then the 2nd guy would buy it then and there. Just my .02

 

how can anyone even pretend the "1st" guy has any kind of right to the car? he hasn't even looked at it-why would anyone turn down a cash offer from someone standing in front of them for a phantom offer from some yahoo that hasn't even laid eyes on the thing. he has already got the price down to $1500 without seeing it, he'd probably show up and turn into the "hmm, it's in a little rough shape than i thought" guy, and try to offer $1200, which would be rejected and the guy would bail and the seller would be left wishing he had just sold the thing to the guy standing in front of him with a stack of cash.

 

I been in the Hotrod business for about 30 years. If I sold all the cars, chassis and parts that callers said they were going to buy, I wouldn't have spent the last 4 hours pushing this dam snow out of my yard. I'd be on the beach in Mexico! Learned early on (Be Backs) are just part of doing business. Cash is King

 

If the guy with the so called offer had shown up at the same time as the guy driving by did. Do you think you would have had a bidding war ,like the dirt bike?

 

The guy was never serious about buying the car, I've had these same kind of flakes they will just waste your time and sometimes they will come multiple time to look at the car and even test drive it but they are just dreaming. He probably sent you the nasty email just because it completed his dream and made it look as if he couldn't have it because you sold it on him not because he didn't have the money and didn't show up.

 

Ida told that guy to kiss my ass. A deal ain't a deal til money changes hands. Not to mention, he made the offer WITHOUT seeing it. So, there's no guarantee he'd abide by the offer after seeing it. I have 2 stories 1-when someone makes a lower offer on the phone, I accept, and tell him, now that you've negotiated without seeing the car, I expect you to PAY me without seeing the car. They never wanna do THAT. 2-a guy comes up to me at a cruise spot last week and asks if my Apache truck is the one that's for sale on-line? I say yes. He says his friend's interested. He calls his friend on the cell. His friend asks him a question, and the middle man relays the question to me, and twists my answer to the guy on the other end of the phone. I say, gimme the phone if your friend has questions for ME. He doesn't, and continues to screw up communications. He hangs up and starts haggling price...for his friend. I tell him I won't negotiate unless he puts $100 on the hood of my truck and make an offer. If I take the $100, I've accepted your offer, and you'll never see the $100 again, it's a deposit. He dicks around with some dumbass bullshit while his other friend says he can duplicate my truck for $4000. I tell him, then build one and sell it to the other guy, and leave me the fuck alone. I also tell him, All this bullshit why your friend is at home instead of hanging out here with the car guys

 

you state that he was coming to see the vehicle at the weekend which you agreed ,then you sold it to someone else on the thursday(before??)i would be pissed if you did that to me,perhaps he was goner ring you friday eve to arrange a visit??,ive just sold a panel to a kid who agreed to meet me on a givern day but had another guy offer cash(the same amount)i told him he was second in line,a week later the kid bought the panel,i think i did right,,when i bought my 46 of hamber chris he told me i was second in line,so i thought i had missed out,3 weeks later i get an email saying it was mine if i want it as the first guy had pulled out,and if i said no there several others in the queue,,i feel good about both those deals