V12 Jag / Daimler engine questions...

I need help with a V12 Jag engine. First, I want to thank everyone in advance. The HAMB seems to be a great community for help and advice, so thanks again.


The engine:

I did a favor for a friend, and in payment I received an early 1970’s V12 Jag / Daimler engine / transmission (basically free). He tells me it was a good running motor and he was going to put it into a Moretti, but the engine was just too big for the car.

Looking at the engine with the 4 SU carbs on the sides, I have a width measurement of almost 39 inches (too wide for the "underhood space" that I have in a 1934 graham). If I relocate the carbs above the engine, I should have the appropriate width (approximately 27 inches).

Has anyone made modifications like this on this type of engine before? If so, how did you approach it? (Any pics? Why did you make the modifications the way you did and would you do anything different?)

Has anyone had experience with this engine? How is the reliability / maintenance?

I'd like to use the engine for the "free factor" and that it looks neat when I open the hood, but still open to ideas if I can get a different powertrain also free / or trade.

Once again, your help is appreciated.

 

I can't help because I don't have any knowledge of this engine, but I would like to see some pics of it regardless....

 

Often these were modified with downdraft Webers as this one in a MIATA


Webers are a bit expensive..but a fab'd manifold could be fashioned. I have seen built with Holleys..I'll see what I can find.
A very heavy..but beautiful engine
Very long lived but very expensive to rebuild.. You could easily put large dosh into one of these. That is why you find them homeless..LUMPS (V8 usually SBC) were very much less to swap then rebuild the 12..



A LARGE ENGINE in a SMALL CAR..

 

I wonder if that Miata overheats... (if it gets driven at all!)

I find it hard to imagine where a person would put an effective radiator...

Wow, that is quite a photo, I really like how the engine hoist has been drive over those little concrete pavers...

Am I the only one who KNOWS how easily those basterds will turn over when run over uneven surfaces?

In case someone does not know, dropping one wheel two or three inches (in my case, that would be the "little ledge" that runs across the far end of many newer garages (20yrs)) with a reasonably (that would be a 351W for me) heavy engine will turn one of those lifts over...

 

I got a complete Jaguar with a V12 for $200.00 once, thought I'd make a killing on it. Wound up selling the rear axle, but only if the guy took the rest of the car with him. That V12 will become a money pit IMO. What year is the Moretti your friend has?

 

The engines are high compression and tend to easily overheat. They come with a T400 tranny that only fits the v12 block. There's a fellow in TX who makes kits to replace the Jag v12's with small block chevy motors, and/or 700R-4 OD trannys behind the v12. The Jag v12 is 327 CID.

 

..the V12 is like having a mistress..except dangerous and expensive..and probably won't last real long..but it could be fun..

But then..this is what it's about...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeZWxZqcVug&feature=related

First drive..

 

Yep..Jaguar V12 in a Corvair..

 

V12 MGB..

 

A Jag engine designer once boasted their V12 had twice as many moving parts in it as any other production passenger car engine. Well worth keeping in mind.....

They do sound awesome though, don't they.

Cheers, Glen.

 

There used to be a guy who ran a Jag 12 in a Camaro at El Mirage. Pretty high on the cool meter and it was fast. I also saw one in the front of a Corvair once that was very nice. i say, "Go for it"

 

Thanks for the input so far... being new with this, I have more questions.

I have been so ignorant about this engine... I just got it home today and started to degrease it... (and I'm sorry but I haven’t taken a picture of this yet). It was so covered with grease, I didn't know that the block was all aluminum! Oh, this tranny doesn't look like a TH400... It is probably my ignorance, but I will get photos on here soon for verification from all of you to debate.

Does anyone know any links to any "repair manuals" or "tech. spec.s" for the engine? Transmission? and SU carbs?

Which numbers on the engine and transmission are of significance? If I can get numbers off of these, is there a way that I can decode it? (Find out year? maybe where it came from? etc???)

Any help here is also appreciated. Thanks again!

 

don't know if you would be interested or not but, there has been a guy on ebay selling dual intake manifolds that fit the v12 and will accept two holleys or edelbrock carburetors, the manifolds are kinda pricey though

 

The repository of All Things Jaguar on the web is right here - http://forums.jag-lovers.org/index.php3 Whatever you need to know can be found there... somewhere... Try the Racing and XJS forums for V-12 info.

When you find a reference to Kirby Palm's book about XJS's, go there and download it, it will have a lot of the info you are looking for.

 

They are decent engines. Not real street bruisers in stock form, but they have decent power and smooth. As shown above, the intake ports are in the center of the engine, so you can narrow it by getting rid of the stock intakes. When overheated, they have a bad habit of dropping valve seats. May God have mercy on your soul if you have to pull a head. Never again. Not a fun experience.

 

i dont move the hoist i move the car..........

 

Your trans is probably a Ford FMX. or some letters!. I had a 73 XKE. I have never been so frustrated and mad at a car. The valve clearance is set with shims and yes you have to pull the cams to do this. Oh, and don't screw up the timing chain position on the sprocket. One chain for everything. The lifters will stick in the bores and will not run well with some stuck open. They do not hit the heads. The parts cost is mind boggling. A master cylinder was $1600. The elec. ignition is Lucas and also expensive.
It sounded like a P-51 or a Spitfire.

 

Chances are that your engine (since it has carbs) is what is called a pre-HE. That means that it has flat heads with the combustion chamber in the piston. The pre-HE motors are often used by folks who want to modify for more HP. These motors do not have sky-high compression.

The HE engines (HE means High Efficiency) are very high compression and have a May head, named after the designer. These heads use turbulence to function. They are the precursors to the Chevy Vortec head. Because of the turbulence and swirl, you can run high compression without pinging.

Setting the timing on these engines is exciting since you need to set the timing at 3000 rpm and you have to look at the timing marks from underneath the car. Makes you hope that whomever is reving the engine does not drop it into gear.

The chronic overheating is due, 99% of the time, by a siezed centrifugal advance. These seize because of the heat in the engine valley and the older poorer oils would not do the job. The advance stays retarded and the owner does not notice because of the adequate power. Eventually, the radiator clogs up a bit (the stock Jags use a weird 2/3-1/3 radiator, so one bank tends to run hotter)(plus, the temp sender is on the bank that runs cooler) or maybe a thermostat sticks. Presto, a seized V12 and Jag gets more of a reputation for building undependable cars.

These engines are way overbuilt. They have the hardest nitrided crankshaft you will ever find. The things that go wrong are stupid things you can correct or reengineer on your own, like the issues described above.

Unless you have a very early engine with a Borg-Warner tranny, you have a TH400 with a special case that bolts to the Jag engine. Inside it is a regular TH400. A wonderful but little known piece of information is that the dowel pins are in the same locations (but different diameters) as a regular Chevy bellhousing. This makes it easy to adapt a Chevy bellhousing/transmission.

Good luck with this engine.

 

That is absurd. No offense, but someone saw you coming. Check the internet: Jag parts are very reasonable. Also check parts interchange listings. Wheel bearings, for example, are standard Chevy parts.

 

Simply beautiful.

my 0.02

.

 

I now have photos of the engine and transmission and the numbers on it.

Although this engine needs a lot of cleaning, the photos that you see are after 3 cans of engine bright and some scrubbing and scraping.

Is this tranny a TH400? looks like a BW... possibly? The engine numbers came off the back side of the block near the bell housing. The transmission numbers came off the green tag on the side. I hope this helps with the identification.

So for the price, what do you think? I hope to put this engine / transmission in the '34 graham (in the background of engine shot).

Thanks again

 

Based off your description, is sounds a lot like the engine and transmission I have. early make =?= Low compression =?= higher reliability?

any real issues with the tranny?

The stupid things that go wrong, are they "easy" fixes or would they require special equipment? I have a baby girl (under the age of two) and one due in August... so the "Barney" and "Wiggles" have been rendering my brain useless recently, so please pardon my stupidity.

Thanks again

 

Cool! Classy engine for any project.

 

I if you are just going to clean it up and run it in stock form it could probably be a reliable power train for years assumong you can address the cooling issues. The designer was right 2x the parts, and 2x exponentially the problems. thse carbs will work just as effectively at pretty steep angles. Some SU's have float bowls that adjust so they can be leveled vs the carb angle. If you wan to tkeep the SU you can probably modify or fabricate some simple tubing intake runners to put the carbs where they will fit, likely at a steeper angle.

There is no doubt that a v12 Graham will be an uncommon vehicle. One other consideration, it is one of the least fuel friendly engines ever put in a production car.

From the pictures, it looks like you could modify the intake runners that are thee to mount the varbs over the cam covers, to trim out some width, but how are you going to accomodate the length??? If I remember my Graham engines, they were about 26 inches long. The Jag engine looks just a tad longer....to the good, can't imagine the Jag as being any heavier than the original set up.

 

A mate of mine has one in his 27T roadster,made his own intake by reversing the runners and welding plates on top to run 2 4barrels.has no overheating problems at all,made his own radiator and made a adaptor to fit a toploader behind it.
He drove it from Western Oz to Sth Oz,about 1200 miles,run it on Lake Gairdner Salt Lake,148 mph and then drove it home again.
Since then he has made his own log manifolds and adapted fuel injection to it,is aiming for 150mph.Will try and sort a pic for you.

 

At 320+ inches I believe high fuel consumption is likely tied to the 'high fun consumption' factor. They produce gobs of torque so one should not have to be on the loud pedal constantly. Proper carb setup and tuning should provide a reliable package with lots of 'gee-whiz' factor.
I want the one in that Miata...


.

 

No offence taken. I did not pay it. This was in 85 so parts prices change. I had it sleeved in brass for $100.

 

we have a '73 v-12 XKE and it takes a steady dose of maintenance, whaether you drive it or not. Possibly more maintenance if you don't drive it even.. But the v-12s sure can sound good.

This is one of the best sounding ones I've heard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofcaN8J2gbo

 

That is definitely a B-W transmission. They have a separate bellhousing. You can probably use that bellhousing to adapt some other tranny. The B-W trannys have some nice features but they also have a lot of slipage in the converter, killing your mileage.

A GM alternator (the older large or small case design, which I like better than the later model CS series) will fit very nicely on the right by the right front exhaust manifold. Or, mount your alternator on top in the vee.

Yours is a pre-HE engine, so it will work fine with a conventional ignition and carbs. The HE engines really need EFI and good ignition control.

Pull the distributor - I guarantee that the centrifugal advance is seized, and in the retarded position. The vacuum advance units also die and I used to cobble together replacements using a Chevy unit mated to the Jag housing.

Make sure you use anti-seize on the spark plugs. Remove the cam covers and use Marine Tex or JB Weld to fill the semicircular openings that hold the rubber half moon seals in place. The rubber half moon seals always shrink from heat and then you get cam cover leaks.

Any other questions, feel free to PM me.

Good luck! This will be a fun project.

 

I do not plan on doing anything major to the engine other than modifying the intake to get it to fit under the '34 graham hood. I do plan on using the stock SU carbs (cost issues... when the vehicle is done, I hope to see my actual cost of building a cool rod while unemployed.)

You mentioned SU carb leveling - what angle is the most ideal and in which direction?



and you mentioned cooling issues...

so keep an eye on the centrifugal advance, but the oils?? what should it have? I do not have a stock jag radiator, how should I size the graham's radiator for the engine or should I look more at a the stock graham radiator and focus on more coolant flow?

so what kind of gallons per mile are we looking at??

I have a 6 cyl in the graham (seized) - from the firewall to the front of the fan is approximatly 31 inches long, the Jag engine w/o the fan is approximatly 37 inches long. I'll put an electric fan between the grill and the radiator, and I'll use a 10 inch deep wheelbarrel body to recess the firewall back to fit the engine in.

As for modifying the intake runners, I will be cutting the runners and flipping the box the carburators mount to (so the carb height is above the engine) and rotating the box the carburators mount to (so the carburators are closer to center of the engine). I think that once all 4 carburators are in the center over the engine, they can share an air cleaner? with the carbs above the engine, everything should fit (from 39 inches wide to 28 inches wide).

anyone have any thoughts or suggestions on this?

thanks again everyone for all the input!