Projects I'm building a steam powered Model A

It's even ok to trade one street rod for another on the Hamb. I guess it a tradition now. I wonder how many companies make drops for tilt steering for a 32s.... Maybe it's a family "tradition".... I still enjoy this tread a lot more that other builds here. Keep at it waffle. Just be safe. A true purest at heart.

 

Thanks for posting your build and It's my favorite of the current posts. As far as it not being traditional hot rod, well no, it's not, not yet. You seem like the kind of guy that will keep upgrading, testing, and experimenting until you get it to perform how you want it. Isn't that what started the hot rod movement in the first place? Where would we be if no one thought outside the box? How would it feel to blow the doors off a flathead or a sbc powered hotrod? Maybe some day you will know. Good luck and be safe.

Toqwik


Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app

 

Indeed.

 

It really appears that Ryan and other mods have given up. It is what it is I guess. Man, is my ignore list getting long, I think it is pushing 150 members now.

 

I'm sorry, Frank, but my gut tells me this design is a bad idea, and I feel I'm not alone here. No, I'm not familiar with the Ofeldt, but have worked around materials all my life and am puzzled as to why Wafflemaster wouldn't take the safer, PROVEN alternative of a "conventional" water-tube boiler. For over 100 years, it was the standard setup for steam locomotives that would do 100 MPH, and, in fact, the only fire-tube design I can think of on the railroads was the 300+ PSI special that the Erie built around the turn of the century and was scrapped as too troublesome - it turns out, the stationary and marine designs sometimes used fire-tube but even on smooth rails, there was too much vibration for the boiler to handle. An even bigger cause for concern, though, is the duplex drum design! Looking up a "typical" Ofeldt on-line I see a SINGLE central drum - the duplex setup introduces a potentially DANGEROUS see-sawing effect we've discussed earlier; I can't emphasize how much of a boiler-killer this feature alone can be. Also noticeable is the ratio of drum diameter to tube area: notice in this photograph how much smaller the central drum is compared to Wafflemaster's?
http://www.kimmelsteam.com/images/Ofeldt boiler-Grzyb/Factory Ofeldt DSC_0777a.jpg

The larger the stored volume of fluid, the more potential for danger there is
Oh well, since he's apparently intent on completing this project all I can do is hope for the best.
Wafflemaster, it's just that nobody wants to see you or others get hurt!

 

I just clicked on the "new posts" link and each and every thread first page was on topic, I only looked at the first page, but damn, probably guessing 25 threads or so and not one was off topic. Yet, so many here cry and complain how this forum isnt the HAMB anymore. I just dont get it, damn, who is keeping your unhappy asses here? Now the crying has come into this build thread, somebody stop the madness and let this guy get on with his thread.

 

Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.

 

I'm excited to see the body come together.

 

Yep. Don't like the thread, frekn' beat it. Don't post how you think this, think that. Just go to your next thought, or fart.

To me, the HAMB is pulling sh#t out of your ass, and putting something on the street, with the cutoff date in mind.

Me, I'm a single dad, HAMB guy wanna' be. A parts collector. A bring back from sh#t body parts thread watcher. An "oh and ah" like button pusher, when some lucky son ofa'b#tch, screws something back together from the damned dead guy. I dunno' if I'll ever not be a lurker. Either that, or I'll be the decade plus, build guy.

Give me a break, with your hundred and fifteenth post regarding what you think the HAMB is, was, and should be.

I guarantee you, the mods' and (eeek'!) El Capitan' Commander Ryan'ero have seen and are watching, this dude screw together a Model A steam engine, tire burner. Who cares what you think ?

This place was a wild churn of mucho' crazo' prior to the 1964 cutoff focus. These guys were building all kinds of nutty items, that wouldn't fit here. But paring all that stuff out, really put a spotlight on all the awesomeness in "little book" hot rod and custom histories. That's what it is.

Build something, identify parts, show me your dibs and discoveries. I don't give a durn' about your wheel color, what you lost when you took a dump, nor what you should stick in your car to keep your girlfriend happy. This is a hot rod and custom forum. Cutoff date is 1964ish. Owned and operated by Ryan Cochran. Ran fairly well, by a bunch of dudes that do this sh#t for us, free of charge. Thanks mods'. I'm the lucky sob that pays nothing, for all of the aboves, hopes and dreams, and hard work.

I don't rant, I don't cry, hell I really don't post much. What I never do, is complain what I think this place is, was, should or shouldn't be. That's not my place to. I don't even like daring to say this. Ridiculous.

Don't like it ? Beat it. Hit the bricks. Sayonora. A reve' a derci'. Adios, and don't let the door hit ya' in the ass. P/M me. I'll tell you what I like about you. This other stuff? Zip it.

Let this guy build this thing, and leave his skid marks, or bloody paramecium stain on his driveway. Either way, let's see some video, and by God, I'm glad to see someone build something here. That's what the HAMB has always been, and sh#t man, I'm sick of magazine re-post adventures, or whether or not I need a cigarette lighter in my bomber seat, belt buckle.

Apologies to anyone that's interested in my objections. I read it, and moved on. I let the mods decide what's cool, and I'm damn sure not going to be the guy, to piss on your thread parade. Keep the board moving. It's more than I've done, and I can prove it.

Cheers to everyone else. Much thanks, for all the rabbit hole discoveries, and left finger "like" clicks I've spent here. Hope I'm lucky enough to pay it back.

Feel free to delete this post moderators. I appreciate all you do, and no, I'm not trying to compete, with what is surely an under appreciate endeavor. I love this place. The HAMB rules. All editions thus far.

 

Hey'ya George, Not TRUE.
Mods have had a discussion about this- Not everyone approves.
I think its F%#$ing COOL though... just my personal opinion.

My take... and I'm no expert on STEAM except the hashtag, is that this is a fascinating thread.

Is he building a hot rod? well, not in the eyes of everyone, but I think this could be argued by definition and the performance outcome, so... wait and see before you judge. Is it something that uses multiple Stromberg carbs and a traditional internal combustion engine? No. So, it doesn't pass the hi-octane litmus test...

Just Relax. Smile, read and learn. I've said and I'll say it again I've received the equivalent of a College Education from this site. This country was founded on men that learned from failure and is still pushed forward by those same men willing to take a chance and fail... just don't give up.

I don't know why everyone is getting so worked up over this thread. I get the safety concerns!!!! OK, but I think the vision he has isn't too far off from any TROG racer or banger built here and there are plenty of people who turn their nose up at TROG.

Dude has passion.

Just walk away if it's not your thing. DONT LOOK. Let the man dance.

For those of you not in the know- you can go into settings and Block the Waffle master and his posts won't show up and the Hamb that you know and love will be as it was.

Tuck

 

you asked why I, and I assume, others who initially joined here because we were interested in traditional hot rods are still here, I will tell you.
1), theres a small, core group of guys here that "get it", and I have made a lot of friends in that group. Not only do I enjoy our (mostly by pm now) discussions, but they have helped me make contacts outside of the HAMB, have shipped cars for me, we buy and sell parts and bodies behind the scenes, and its still a good resource for information, although again, most of that goes on off-forum now. For instance, I need to fab a rear panel for a '23''25 T rpu body, I posted a thread in the last 24 hours, and a member has one for me he can measure for me.
2), its still a good parts source, I have bought a ton of stuff out of the classifieds here for my project cars. Good stuff still turns up here, its a useful resource if you are building a car.
3) theres a great feature on here its the "ignore" button, I figure most aren't really familiar with how it works, once you put a member on "ignore" you don't see his posts anymore, its like they just disappear! So when someone starts spouting ridiculous bullshit about what does or doesn't constitute a "traditional hot rod", I just click on his avatar, it takes me to his profile page, and theres an "ignore" button at the upper right, I click on it, bingo, no more posts from oh say, for instance, guys that think a steam powered Model A is a "traditional" hot rod. Then I just don't have to waste my time reading their bullshit anymore. Its like you can design your own HAMB experience.

 

Tuck, honestly, I find it interesting too. I haven't blocked "wafflemaster" but I just blocked the two or three clowns that are spouting off about how its a traditional hot rod.

 

The irony in this post is palpable and delicious. [He says, as his voice echoes from someone's ignore list...]

 

I've been studying Stanleys for over 40 years, and operating several of them, including one of my own, for the past 10. It's interesting to see that the responders who have built operating steam cars are pretty satisfied with your thought process. The people who aren't satisfied have worked with steam, but not automotive steam. There's a difference.

I'm pretty sure you've considered these points already, but it seemed like it could help to clarify them for the discussion.

1. Fire tube boilers explode when a large opening appears rapidly in a wall, allowing a lot of high-energy content to escape almost instantly. Traction engine boilers, like the one at Medina, have large, relatively flat areas of wall, that are supposed to be supported against expansion by a combination of their wall thickness and internal stays (including the tubes). Fire tube boilers don't explode when a leak occurs. If the Medina boiler had ruptured one of its tubes, it would not have exploded, just leaked until the pressure was gone. When I blow down my boiler at the end of the day, I create 4 big simultaneous 550 PSI leaks all at once. And it's the high-temperature, high-energy water that's coming out, flashing into steam. No explosion. Just a little jet effect pushing the car back into the garage.

2. Most Stanley fire-tube boilers use copper tubes. They're certainly exposed to the heat of the fire - it's their job to transfer it into the water. As long as there's water behind them, receiving the heat, the copper is fine. These copper-tube boilers are known to serve regularly for decades with good care. When not cared for - run dry, mud burns, etc. - the steel softens, the copper softens, and the tubes start to leak. Not explode. (People ruin Stanley boilers often enough that a couple of guys are busy all the time building new ones. But none of them explode.)

3. The Stanley boiler has two flat walls, the heads, and one cylindrical wall. The copper tubes running between the heads act as hundreds of staybolts, keeping the heads from bulging. The tubes also act as hundreds of safety devices - if one overheats, it softens and leaks the pressure away. (If the problem is overpressure, they collapse, then leak.) The cylindrical wall is given immense hoop strength by 3 layers of tensioned piano wire. We DO NOT run a Stanley boiler without the wire. The old boiler in my car was made by a rugged individualist (In the steam hobby? Come on!), who told people he made it to code, without the winding, and it was ok. It had run for many years before I got it. I immediately pulled it out and wound it.

I'm not a steam car design expert. A couple of things do bother me here - gas cylinders are certainly rated for high pressure, but I don't know that the rating is accurate at significantly higher temperatures than are used in gas storage. And what about the temperature gradient along the walls? I'm nervous, too, about the twinned chambers - the dynamics of a water-steam system, combined with the necessarily restricted level equalization rate between them, seem like a recipe for not having accurate information about the water level in both places. Measuring water level in an automotive boiler has a number of challenges already - lag in the transfer in & out of the glass's water column, angle of the boiler giving a false reading, sloshing due to acceleration & deceleration giving a false reading. In my car, the system dynamics cause the water level to rise in the glass upon merely opening the throttle. When you're stopped, you see the true level.

Chuk has been designing and building steam cars for years, and has traveled about as fast as anyone alive, behind steam. I'd trust his input completely. Locomobiler is a thoughtful builder and operator, and I respect his thinking as well. I believe you're giving these issues plenty of consideration, and have no intention of cutting corners on safety. Best of luck, keep thinking safety, and keep hearing what the steam car builders have learned. As others have mentioned, SACA (Steam Automobile Club of America) folks have been down these same roads over and over. There are a lot of discussions online, and a huge amount of technical information in 60 years of the magazine and in the technical papers available. You'll get a variety of opinions there, too. but at least a lot of them come from people who have worked on making a steam road vehicle go.

 

It's mostly forgotten, rarely mentioned and unknown nowadays, but at one time a good portion of vehicles on the road in the USA were steam powered. There were about 40 different steam car companies in the very early 1900's, many more in Europe. Some made thousands and some only made a few. They were indeed hot rods - the fastest thing on four wheels, if a person wanted to go any faster they had to take the train. My little 1901 Locomobile rated at 6 hp will hit 40mph no problem at all. I know this may sound like hotrod hyperbole , but I seriously don't know how fast it will go, sitting atop it with zero safety equipment and on nothing more than heavy duty bicycle wheels, I'll never know, at 40 on the GPS, I let off of it and it was still climbing.

These little steam cars were the first police and fire department first response vehicles. And even when I/C engine cars came along and started seeing widespread use, the steam cars would still leave early I/C engine cars sitting. As I understand it, the 127 mph land speed record set in 1906 wasn't broken by an I/C engine car until many years later.

In the antique vehicle circles, they are definitely considered hotrods.

-Ron

 

I subscribe to the belief that what other people think of me is none of my business.

 

Even though this car may not be traditional by many standards I bet most traditionalists are interested in the build and I am pretty sure someone built something like it during the era we consider traditional cars were built.

 

Ironic how much hot air this thread has generated.
If Wafflemaster can do the same this A will go like hell!

 

James-

My Model T runs down the road as fast as I want to go in it-with approx 75-100 psi going to the engine. I use a working pressure of 300 psi, but never need to floor the throttle to maintain my cruising speed of 25 or so. My V4 engine is a bit bigger than your Loco engine, but I still think you must have some blowby past the rings or something. I don't have any idea of what steam temp you're using, which will make a big difference....I'm running a steam temp of 550-600F in mine. "Locomobiler"-Ron is the expert on Locos!

 

Haha, not really.. I think I may have laid it on a little too thick here

Hi Chuk, Jim,

I agree on the 150 psi/sluggish performance. Must be a D-valve issue, not seating, hanging on the valve rod or rings that have collapsed etc. In the video I posted, we were running on average about 150, between 100 and 200 psi mainly, it will pull itself on about 40. My tugboat will run down to 10 psi and still pull itself, won't back up under way, but it will go forward.

One thing I've noticed about these little twin simple Mason-types is the timing is difficult to set with it mounted in the car. It's best done on the bench on low air pressure. The valve ports are so wide, that even slight turn - extension or contraction on the valve rod changes the event timing significantly. Getting it to self start and run equally well in forward and reverse is about impossible, I just set it to where it smacks good in forward position, and reverse, meh.

-Ron

 

I love the picture withe the steam car going past an MG with the hood up.

 

Pretty neat to watch how they make gas cylinders. Chrome Moly billet, seamless, heat treated. Those are some big presses!

 

I love this project. It's really interesting and inspirational to see someone with the time, talent, and means building instead of talking. Keep on keepin' on and try not to die!

 

Any updates? Interested parties patiently waiting.

 

I can't understand how you can say fire tube boilers are troublesome. All the Stanleys and Locomobiles were fire tube, as were traction engines, locomotives and donkey boilers.

 

Progress!

First off, the super-duper special "steam oil" that I had to source showed up. I could only buy it in 5 gallon pails...so it should last me about 50,000 miles haha. It's 600w, kinda like Model A rear end oil, except it has special emulsifiers in it to prevent getting washed away by the steam. All internal lubrication is provided via steam, injected via my "Swift" oiler (patent circa 1885). Kinda cool.



While I was waiting for my new super-duper plumbing to arrive, I used some cardboard to get a feel for the dimensions of the firebox. Drawing it in CAD is one thing, seeing it in person really helps me define the shape and size. My slip roll won't accommodate 10ga stainless, so instead of an rectangle with rounded ends I'll probably go with an elongated hexagon shape.



I also started prepping my Torchmate CNC plasma for some cutting duty. I haven't run it in a year or so. It'll be handy for the firebox, gussets, seat brackets and pipe hangers. While I was cleaning out the water box I found a couple of these lovely ladies from an old project. Might have to repurpose them on the steam car!



New piping showed up. Very robust. All class 300 or 3000 / schedule 80 (depending on the fitting. Some isn't available in class 300 from my supplier). I'm glad I had my current setup as a prototype because this stuff is spendy and you don't want too many extra parts.



While I had all the plumbing off, I decided to rotate the engine 180 degrees. This helps me for a few reasons:

• Better access to the reversing/Stephanson linkage. It's not on the driver's side.
• I get to show off the copper exhaust instead of potentially hiding it under bodywork
• More direct piping to the intake side from the boiler (hopefully)

I had some braided, high pressure, high temp, PTFE hoses made at a local industrial supply shop. I did this based on suggestions from a couple steam car guys (Locomobiler) to reduce any vibration transmitted between the engine and boiler. It looks like they will work really well, and they simplify some of my hard-line plumbing as an added bonus. I have to work on a hanger system to support the weight next.



Most of the piping is mocked up, I just need to finalize the connections and fabricate some mounts for the new pipework and the sight glass. The sight glass and try-cock assembly is about 35lbs by itself and I would like to have that weight carried by the chassis and the the pluming.



I'm hoping to get it steaming again with the new firebox, reduced gearing and proper propane tank mounting by mid-next week.

 

What do you do for breakfast?Just wondering what feeds a mind like yours.
I don't understand this but am enjoying it.

 

http://www.jimspancakes.com/

 

Your progress is amazing. You get more done in a couple of days than I do in a year. This is fun to watch.

Bobby