Hot Rods '25 T Roadster Sports Rod.

I don't want to hijack Stewart's thread, but yes, the tow bar was temporarily installed. PM me if you'd like more photos; if I can figure that whole process out!

 

Mike,
I had thought of using old ford shocks as the link. Hollow out the housing and weld a crank that connects through the frame to the coil-over. I just didn't have the room though. I got the idea from an article in Street Rodder several years ago of an under construction Model A sedan with a full round tube chassis that used old shocks with splined shaft running through the hood sides to the lever that connected to the coil-over. It was very slick.
Cheers,
Stewart.
Waiting patiently for pictures of your Track T .

 

I've always found the Citroen 2 cv suspension interesting...either as it sits in the 2 cv or even as a way to "spring" a different style of suspension. Quirky but brilliant in its simplicity.

 

I don't know how to segue this, but here is Ak Miller's sports T, for the "youngsters".
( Carrera Panamerica participant, 1954.)

 

This is not just a cool build, but also a great conversation. It's easy to think of hot rods in 'the old days' as solely straight line machines, and surely most were. But there's a grey and fuzzy line where hot rods, 'specials,' and sports cars mixed. I'm happy we're exploring it, and for this build, recreating it.

 

With the axle positions mocked up and decided, it was time to get going on the suspension.
I am using a '35 axle and spindles. I knew something would need modifying as I needed a 4" on 4 1/2" bolt pattern to suit the MGA wheels. A bit of digging on the old interweb told me that Toyota also used the same bolt pattern. More digging told me that the "Legends" race cars use Toyota hubs, rotors, and calipers. They also make and sell stub axles to take these. A quick visit to the Racing Junk website netted some new stubs and rotors and a pair of used hubs. I took the Ford spindles into college where they were machined to accept the Legend stubs. The welding dept then welded the stubs into the spindles. Its great to trade work with other faculty who need work doing on their cars .
With the spindles modified, I mounted them to the axle, then put the assembled axle into my fixture and mounted to the table. I have set the frame at ride height, and the spindles at tyre diameter, minus a little squish. I am waiting on some 4-bar batwings before I can establish frame mounts for those, so I made a start on the quarter elliptic mounts. These brackets were actually prototypes for the mounts when I designed the frame for the modifieds we built and sold at Real Hot Rods. They have been in my "bracket" pile ever since. Would seem a shame not to use them . I used a leaf spring I had to start with, but it will get cut in half to make the 1/4 elliptics.
That's all for today, will finalise the position of the brackets and tack weld them to the frame next.
Cheers,
Stewart

 

We'll done, Stewart! I'll be passing through E.L. Friday afternoon. I'll call to see if you are around.

Chuck

 

Look forward to it.
Cheers,
Stewart.

 

Did 2 small things today.
I made the track rod. A half an hours job, using 7/8" o.d. DOM tubing. I just drilled and tapped the ends for 5/8" fine thread. A trick someone showed me years ago, was to use a hose clamp when marking the cut line on a piece of tube. It always amazed me that I could never mark a line at 90 degrees to the tubes axis, If I use a hose clamp, I get it every time!

The other thing I did was to name the roadster. I have always loved Indy cars from the '40s and up, with the names being that of the main sponsor. "The Leader Card Special" is my favourite I think. Took me years to realize that it was a card manufacturer!
I named my coupe. I built my coupe to my tastes, for me. I like to think I don't take myself, or my coupe too seriously. The name reflects that, I think. Its not a show car, it doesn't get washed often, but I drive it every day, and it always brings a smile to my face when I do.
So the name for the roadster had to have the same sort of feeling too. I think I got it . Obviously, I'm no artist. The spacing is off, and it all wants to be a bit lower, but you can get the idea.
Cheers,
Stewart.

 

Got the steering box mounted. I'm using an original Corvair box that has been reversed. As the cowl sweeps wider on an early T, I as was able to use it as a cowl steer, without having to lengthen the output shaft. I want to run ECTA Modified Roadster at Wilmington. The position of the box meant I had to seal it off from the engine bay, as it sits straddling the firewall.
All of those geometry classes in school paid off working out all the oblique angles!!
Put some pictures of the Engine mounts and Radiator/Grille Shell mounts as well.
Cheers,
Stewart.

 

I like your Toyota stub axle conversion; was never aware that anything like that was available, but it sure solved a lot of problems for you!

 

The Toyota inner bearing has a larger I.D. than an Early Ford one, so the original stub axle would have needed to be welded on, or a sleeve fitted. The Toyota outer bearing has a smaller I.D. Than the Early Ford. The distance between the bearings is also different. The Legend stub axle was a lot cheaper than welding and turning the originals would have been.
Cheers,
Stewart.

 

It's a myth that 2CV suspension is interlinked front and rear. I've cut open many of the canisters and the front and rear pullrods and springs are not connected in any way at all.

 

On that other site, you mentioned that someone may have been in your saved picture file... I'm wondering if you've been in my brain. I've been collecting some T parts here and there over the last several years, and your mock up is almost exactly what is pictured in my head, visually....down to the contoured frame rails under the body for extra room. Now, mines a glass (don't hate me, it was almost free) 23 w/ turtle deck, and I bought 2X4 to taper down in front. Plus I'll be running a mercruiser / T5 trans. So, I wouldn't say we're building the exact same car, but If I had a picture of the car in my head, it would look pretty much just like yours. Amazing...

 

"Great minds think alike, though Kings and Fools seldom differ" .
I had considered using a glass body. Nothing wrong with the material, I used to earn my living building glass roadsters and modifieds. In the end, I realized I needed the body to come apart to fit it around the spaceframe, so an early T fitted the bill.
Cheers,
Stewart.

 

I thought it was odd that it would even need to be.
The arm layout will allow incredible suspension movement alone!
If all that movement wasn't required it would be simple to just limit it with a snubber and the right shock.

 

I love this build...

A very nice blend of a Traditional Hot Rod and a Vintage British Special.

If you ever decide to split the front axle like an early Mallock, let me know.

I can give you some measurements off mine so you can scale them up from Pop to '35 axle dimensions.

 

Fantastic project! Look forward to the build coming together.

 

It's all the same thing...just evolved differently due to different donor vehicles and of course due to the huge geographical differences between England/Europe and the USA. Wide open spaces and places like Bonneville over here...a lot of ancient narrow streets and paths over there.
Hot Rods...Specials. Brothers of a different mother....

 

The canister itself is the interlink. You'll notice that it can move fore and aft, resisted by the volute springs at the ends.

 

What does doing it that way allow to happen Ned?
It SEEMS redundant in description...but I'm sure it has a reason to be done that way! LoL
I've always found it odd that it seems to be (mostly) the small, common cars for the general masses that had the truly cool engineering. VW...2-CV...Mini...Model T etc.

 

The coils springs (11 and 14 in the drawing above) in the canister are stiffer than the volute springs (6).

If we leave out the volute springs, the assembly of canister, two coil springs, seating cups, and pullrods becomes equivalent to a single spring in tension. The way it is connected to the leading and trailing arms, the canister assembly is in tension between the front and rear suspension on one side of the car, but not between either the front or the rear suspension and the frame. Sharing one effective spring between the front and rear wheels means that the spring is loaded twice as much in roll as in a single-wheel bump, because in the former case the spring is loaded at both ends.

If we left it there the car would have zero spring stiffness in pitch: under braking the front of the car would dive onto the bump-stops, the canisters would be pulled forwards, and the rear would rise; and vice versa under acceleration or additional cargo load. The car would also have zero warp stiffness: regardless of the profile of the surface the car is standing on, there would be zero forces tending to twist the frame. The latter characteristic is immensely valuable in a car which has a light separate chassis frame like the 2CV, which is why I've been trying to think of ways to apply the principle to hot rods for years.

The volute springs come in to bring back a bit of pitch stiffness. They resist the fore-aft movement of the canisters, but at a spring rate far lower than that of the canister-spring assembly taken as a whole. This is how the 2CV achieves the seeming impossible: a lower spring rate in pitch than in bump or roll. The result is a remarkable ride quality for so light a car. It also means, however, that the warp rate is not zero, but it is nevertheless far lower than the overall spring-rate picture would suggest, and easily within the capabilities of the light ladder frame.

We could get purist and propose interconnecting the volute springs left to right, for instance. That would give us pitch stiffness but still zero warp stiffness. Perhaps we could use airbags connected together: the possibilities are endless. Perhaps bags would be a bit of a waste, as the volute springs have no bearing on the overall ride height. And besides, a little bit of warp stiffness, or at least warp damping, might not be a bad thing.

The same principle has been tried in different media over the years. The '55-'56 Packard Torsion-Level system did the same thing with torsion bars: the long bars that ran the length of the car are analogous to the 2CV's canister assembles, and the shorter bars analogous to the volute springs. Several BMC/British Leyland cars used low-pressure hydraulics to the same end. I've devised a number of schemes using various media though I have yet to build anything in practice using the principle. If anyone would like to pick my brain on this, feel free to ask.

 

Thats incredible thinking right there! Man oh man...the deeper you look the more amazing they are!

 

Exactly. I have always "had a foot in both camps". It's the time period that is the same. The late '50s and early '60s must have been the best times to be a car guy, no matter where you lived.
Cheers,
Stewart.

 

I got a foot in a lot of camps myself! hahahaha
I could see myself building something like a Locost or even a Locust!
I love the look and in the case of the Locust...I could get off on the eccentricity of a skinned plywood body.
It's all still fabrication and sourcing parts etc despite the differences in body styling. Very little is different in the actual build procedure...just in the cars you would be sourcing parts from.
The idea of this Sports Rod and combining the build styling of two different worlds is awesome in my book!
I really love threads like this...

 

I find this an extremely interesting build project!....I have 2 projects in my garage at the moment, one of an old style T roadster, and the other, an early Triumph TR3...parts lying side by side separated by a rolling tool box, and I have thought at times of 'incorporating' some extra parts & things together into an old style ''special'' while standing in the middle of it all during both projects....sure, it's different, but right alongside my own hot rod builds, it doesn't seem that far removed actually. ....very interesting!

 

I like you project (T) it look like we have the same liking in 34 ford and (t),to iam building a t roadester. and as you can see i have a steel 5 window.as soon as i can learn how to post photo i would like to share with you,keep up the good work!!!!!!!!

 

OK, Stewart; I just came in after spending part of the day fiddling with the faux banger project; when I see the quality of your fab work. I think I should just call the junk man to haul it away and then shoot myself!

Fabulous work there, mate!

Chuck

 

Love the profile!! However I'm partial towards 33-34's so I'd like to see more of your 5wnder. I'll chek your media. Tim