History We ALL Love a DARE! PIX of TRULY Extinct Makes?

The fellow that Dad bought my Cord from in 1962 had bought it for the transmission which is supposed to be in Tucker 1032 that now resides in the National Auto Museum (formerly Harrahs) in Reno Nevada, so I would assume pretty much the same as Cord. Hudson also had this type of shifting in there Terraplane circa '37. The fellow previously mentioned owned 6 Tuckers at the time and needed the transmission out of the Cord for one of them.

As far as the Cord shifter, it was designed to select the gear first and then push the clutch in but I've talked to guys that shift them just like a regular car and have no problems. I will try to get some more info on how they work. If only Dad was still here, he'd know it off the top of his head.

 

Preselector gearbox

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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</td></tr><tr><td>
</td></tr></tbody></table>preselector gearbox is a type of manual gearbox (US: transmission) used on a variety of vehicles, most commonly in the 1930s. The defining characteristic of a preselector gearbox is that the manual shift lever is used to "pre-select" the next gear to be used, then a separate control (a foot pedal) is used to engage this in one single operation, without needing to work a manual clutch.

Most pre-selector transmissions avoid a manual clutch entirely, some use one solely for starting off.

Pre-selector gearboxes are not automatic gearboxes, although they both share some aspects and past influences of epicyclic gearboxes. A fully automatic gearbox selects the ratio used, with a pre-selector gearbox this remains a manual choice.

There are several radically different mechanical designs of pre-selector gearbox

 

Tucker Transmissions from Wikipedia

Continuing development &#8211; transmission

With the 589 and its torque converters (and no reverse) out, Tucker now needed a transmission to mate with the Franklin O-335. They decided to try adapting designs intended for front-engine/front wheel drive use. The Cord 810/812 4-speed electro-vacuum manual transmissions fit the design requirements and were used initially. The Cord 810/812 could not handle the power and torque of the O-335 engine, shearing off the teeth from first gear if the engine was gunned off the line. Trying to solve this problem, Tucker and his engineers modified the Cord 810/812 by installing stronger gears and lengthening the case. The modified Cord was named the Tucker Y-1 (Ypsilanti-1) and was installed in most Tuckers. The Cord 810/812 and Tucker Y-1 used a Bendix electric vacuum shift mechanism, with no mechanical linkage to the steering column shift lever. These versions had problems with electrical connections and vacuum leaks which hindered shifting, so a new design was needed.

A Borg-Warner 3-speed automatic was tested and was installed on car #1048, but Tucker ultimately wanted to design his own transmission for the car.

To solve the transmission problems with a new design, Warren Rice, creator of the Buick Dynaflow transmission, was consulted. A unique continuously variable automatic transmission, called the "Tuckermatic" was designed, which was strong enough to handle the Franklin O-335's power and torque. It was a simple but effective design with double torque converters and only 27 parts, about 90 fewer than normally required for an automatic. The double torque converters allowed a continuously variable drive ratio with only one forward gear and one reverse gear which used the torque converters to vary resistance based on load.

Three versions of the Tuckermatic were made, the R-1, R-1-2, and R-3, (R for Warren Rice, its designer). The first version, the R-1, was not installed on any of the final cars. It required the engine to be off in order to select a gear. The R-1-2 was improved by adding a layshaft brake to allow gear selection while the engine was running. This version was installed on cars #1026 and 1042 only. The R-3 version had further improvements including a centrifugal clutch to help shifting between forward and reverse even further, however it was never installed in any of the final cars.

Because the two torque converters on the Tuckermatic made the engine/transmission unit longer, the fuel tank in the Tucker '48 had to be moved from behind the rear seat to in front of the dashboard for all Tuckers from car #1026 forward, even though only two of them actually had the Tuckermatic installed. This had the added advantage of improving weight distribution on the car.

The following link will take you to a description and pictures of the two different Tucker shifters;

http://www.tuckerclub.org/bbs3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1703

This link will take you to a description and wiring diagram of how the Cord shifter works;

http://www.automaven.com/Technical/_Gearshift_Wiring/_gearshift_wiring.html

 

Remaining Tucker '48s today and original configuration:

From Wikipedia

<table class="wikitable"> <tbody><tr> <td style="background: rgb(240, 240, 240) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;" align="center">Chassis Number</td> <td style="background: rgb(240, 240, 240) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;" align="center">Location</td> <td style="background: rgb(240, 240, 240) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;" align="center">Owner</td> <td style="background: rgb(240, 240, 240) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;" align="center">Engine</td> <td style="background: rgb(240, 240, 240) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;" align="center">Transmission</td> <td style="background: rgb(240, 240, 240) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;" align="center">Front Suspension Version</td> <td style="background: rgb(240, 240, 240) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;" align="center">Original Body Color/Paint Code</td> <td style="background: rgb(240, 240, 240) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;" align="center">Notes</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1000 (Tin Goose)</td> <td>Huntingdon, PA</td> <td>Swigart Antique Auto Museum</td> <td>Tucker 589 cu in. Direct Drive (Original); Converted to Franklin O-335 by Tucker after first showing.</td> <td>Direct drive torque converters (Original); Converted to Tucker Y-1 by Tucker after first showing.</td> <td>Rubber Disc Type</td> <td>Maroon/600</td> <td>Tin Goose was the only complete Tucker with Rubber Disc prototype suspension, the 589 engine, and direct torque converter drive (with no reverse gear). After the first showing it was converted to an O-335/Y-1 at the Tucker factory.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1001</td> <td>Alexandria, VA</td> <td>Tucker Collection/Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 1</td> <td>Maroon/600</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1002</td> <td>California</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 1</td> <td>Waltz Blue/200</td> <td>Fenders changed from 1003-on to allow rear wheel removal. Rubber Torsion tube front suspension plaqued by severe toe-in when braking.</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1003</td> <td>California</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Maroon/600</td> <td>Front bumper lengthened to protect the center headlight if pulled to close to a wall or barrier.</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1004</td> <td>Nagakutecho, Japan</td> <td>Toyota Automobile Museum</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Grey(Silver)/500</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1005</td> <td>Tallahassee, FL</td> <td>Tallahassee Antique Car Museum</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Waltz Blue/200</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1006</td> <td>California</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Green/300</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1007</td> <td>Tacoma, WA</td> <td>LeMay Museum</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Green/300</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1008</td> <td>Chicago, IL</td> <td>Chicago Vintage Motor Carriage</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Beige/400</td> <td>Car was originally Beige but is now Maroon/600. It is currently located in The Richard Driehaus Collection at Chicago Vintage Motor Carriage.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1009</td> <td>California</td> <td>LucasFilms, LTD</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Grey(Silver)/500</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1010</td> <td>Washington</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Waltz Blue/200</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1011</td> <td>Montana</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Beige/400</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1012</td> <td>LaPorte, Indiana</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Maroon/600</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1013</td> <td>Huntingdon, PA</td> <td>Swigart Antique Auto Museum</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Grey(Silver)/500</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1014</td> <td>San Francisco, CA</td> <td>Privately owned/Francis Ford Coppola</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Waltz Blue/200</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1015</td> <td>St. Clair Shores, MI</td> <td>The Stahls Collection</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Cord 810/812</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Green/300</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1016</td> <td>Dearborn, MI</td> <td>Henry Ford Museum</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Black/100</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1017</td> <td>Colorado</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Green/300</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1018</td> <td>Grand Rapids, MI</td> <td>Incomplete/ Remains are privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Beige/400</td> <td>This car was wrecked in 1953. The remnants of the frame are located in Grand Rapids, MI and some body panels are in Roscoe, IL with the owner of Tucker 1027. The engine and Y-1 transmission from #1018 are located at the Tucker Collection in Alexandria, VA.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1019</td> <td>California</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Black/100</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1020</td> <td>Japan</td> <td>Hani Corporation</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Maroon/600</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1021</td> <td>California</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Black/100</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1022</td> <td>Alexandria, VA</td> <td>Tucker Collection/Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Grey(Silver)/500</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1023</td> <td>Florida</td> <td>Destroyed in Fire</td> <td>
</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Maroon/600</td> <td>Remains of car after fire were buried under the garage of a TACA founder.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1024</td> <td>Lincoln, NE</td> <td>The Smith Collection</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Waltz Blue/200</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1025</td> <td>Frankfort, IN</td> <td>The Goodwin Collection</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Cord 810/812</td> <td>Rubber Sandwich</td> <td>Grey(Silver)/500</td> <td>Rubber sandwich front suspension abandoned due to severe stiffness</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1026</td> <td>Alexandria, VA</td> <td>Tucker Collection/Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tuckermatic R-1-2</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Maroon/600 (Repainted in Bronze during restoration)</td> <td>From #1026-on the fuel tank was moved to the front of the car and the Rubber Torsion Tube 2 style suspension with improved toe-in was used. Arguably the most valuable Tucker, #1026 is the only remaining complete Tucker with the Tuckermatic transmission.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1027</td> <td>Roscoe, IL</td> <td>Historic Auto Attractions</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Unknown</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Waltz Blue/200</td> <td>Car was rolled in testing at Indy by Tucker Corp. Remnants recently purchased and may be displayed soon. Museum also owns some body panels to wrecked Tucker 1018.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1028</td> <td>Tupelo, MS</td> <td>Tupelo Automobile Museum</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Cord 810/812</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Beige/400</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1029</td> <td>California</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Grey(Silver)/500</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1030</td> <td>Los Angeles, CA</td> <td>Petersen Automotive Museum</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Black/100</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1031</td> <td>South Dakota</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Waltz Blue/200</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1032</td> <td>Reno, NV</td> <td>Harrah\'s Auto Collection</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Cord 810/812</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Grey(Silver)/500</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1033</td> <td>Maine</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Maroon/600</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1034</td> <td>Tucker, GA</td> <td>The Cofer Collection</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Waltz Blue/200</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1035</td> <td>Sao Paulo, Brazil</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Unknown</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Black/100</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1036</td> <td>Nevada</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Maroon/600</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1037</td> <td>Rutherford, CA</td> <td>Privately owned/Francis Ford Coppola</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Waltz Blue/200</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1038</td> <td>Unknown</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Cord 810/812</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Green/300</td> <td>#1038 sold at auction in August 2006 for $577,500 ($525,000 plus fees) and sold again in August 2008 for $1,017,500 ($925,000 plus fees).</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1039</td> <td>Washington, DC</td> <td>Smithsonian Institution</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Grey(Silver)/500</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1040</td> <td>Sylmar, CA</td> <td>San Sylmar Museum</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Beige/400</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1041</td> <td>California</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Cord 810/812</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Black/100</td> <td>Tucker # 1041 sold at the Clars Auction on June 7, 2009 for $750,000 ($765,000 with fees)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1042</td> <td>Memphis, TN (Last seen)</td> <td>Abandoned/Destroyed/Lost</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tuckermatic R-1-2</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Maroon/600</td> <td>Found abandoned along the banks of the Mississippi River in Memphis, TN; It had been totally destroyed. A Memphis policeman took possession of the remains, but they disappeared. Most of the Tuckermatic transmission was found and is currently located at the Tucker Collection in Alexandria, VA.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1043</td> <td>Arizona</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Unknown</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Waltz Blue/200</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1044</td> <td>Ohio</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Cord 810/812</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Green/300</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1045</td> <td>Ohio</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Grey(Silver)/500</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1046</td> <td>California</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335 (original) / Oldsmobile Rocket 88 / Mercury 390CID</td> <td>Unknown</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2 (Original)/Removed for front engine conversion</td> <td>Maroon/600</td> <td>This car was converted to a Front-Engine Oldsmobile drivetrain in the 1950\'s by Nick Jenin for his daughter. It was converted again in the 1960\'s to a 1964 Mercury Monterey chassis with 390 CID front engine. Recently sold on eBay for $202,700 (8/20/07).</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1047</td> <td>Hickory Corners, MI</td> <td>Gilmore Car Museum</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Cord 810/812</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Waltz Blue/200</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1048</td> <td>Hartford, Wisconsin</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Borg-Warner 3-speed automatic</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Green/300</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1049</td> <td>Old Oxted, Surrey, England</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Tucker Y-1</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Waltz Blue/200</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1050</td> <td>San Marcos, TX</td> <td>Dicks Classic Garage</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Cord 810/812</td> <td>Rubber Torsion Tube 2</td> <td>Maroon/600</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1051</td> <td>New Jersey</td> <td>Privately owned</td> <td>Franklin O-335</td> <td>Unknown</td> <td>Unknown</td> <td>
</td> <td>Tucker 1051 was not completed at the Tucker factory, so it is not technically considered one of the original 51 cars (Tin Goose + 50). The car was purchased at the Tucker auction in an incomplete state, and was finished in the late 1980\'s using leftover Tucker parts and fiberglass replica doors.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

 

Hudson Terraplane Shifter from Wikipedia

An optional accessory on some 1935-1938 Hudson and Terraplane models was a steering column-mounted electric gear pre-selector and electro-mechanical automatic shifting system, known as the Electric Hand, manufactured by the Bendix Corporation. This took the place of the floor-mounted shift lever, but required conventional clutch actions. Cars equipped with Electric Hand also carried a conventional shift lever in clips under the dash, which could be pulled out and put to use in case the Electric Hand should ever fail. Hudson was also noted for offering an optional vacuum-powered automatic clutch, starting in the early 1930s.

 

Man, Jim! That is a WEALTH of info about the imaginative engineering that went into transmission development in the '30s and into the '40s! THANKS for all of this info. Extremely engrossing and educational!

 

Thanks for posting, RamblerClassic! Never heard of Doane, but here's some more on the fab Velie.

Made from 1908 through 1928, Velies were highly regarded automobiles, using a variety of established engines, including Lycoming, Continental and engines of their own design, as well. Velies are by no means extinct, however the official Velie Register knows of only about 230 in the U.S. and some 13 other countries . . . SO, some years and body styles may well be nonexistent -- really extinct.

Williard Velie, grandson of John Deere, founded the company in Moline, IL, out of the previous Velie Carriage Co. Soon after entering the auto business, Velie began building light and heavy trucks and, eventually, started a very successful aircraft enterprise, too. Though not inexpensive like Henry's T, Velies were very competitive in price with other quality mid-price cars of their time. Velie was a progressive company, always adopting successful new technologies.

Velie is among the better-remembered early makes, mainly for their legacy of quality commitment. The company motto was, "The Name Insures the Quality." Indeed, Velie, never among America's top 10 sellers, was a brand that prided itself on quality over quantity -- in an age when such a concept was not considered business insanity!

In 1928 Willard Velie died, and his son, Willard, Jr., could not balance the demands of automaking and aircraft at the same time. The Velie automobile was discontinued, and the junior Velie died suddenly just five months after his father. It seems a little ironic that the successful Velie automobile was canceled in January 1929, just months before the Crash of 1929 would decimate the ranks of U.S. automakers. Not luck, not planned, but fortuitous timing, nevertheless! In the tough, even cruel auto industry, it's a rare marque that is privileged to retire on top of its game!


1920 Velie Model 34 touring car, thanks to the WikiMedia Commons project.



About as stylish as any of the best mid-price cars of 1928 is this Velie! For a whole LOT more details about this memorable -- if scarce -- American make, see HJManiac's posts, #2965 and 2966. Great stuff!

 

Here's a 1925 Doane low stakebed for RamblerClassic and all the truck lovers on the HAMB. NICE photo is by Hank Suderman and is featured on a keen site by Paul Grushkin from 2007, simply titled, Rockin' Down the Highway with Paul Grushkin. If you drool for early trucks, you'll spend a LOT of time ogling all the great pix!!! BTW, the '25 Doans were used for hauling heavy cargo to and fro on the docks, as oil-field tankers, in lumber yards, warehouse work, etc., and is as pictured at a 2005 American Truck Historical Society (ATHS) Northwest Chapter event in Selden, WA

​

Since we're on trucks, here's a partial list of early heavy trucks. It's interesting that so few are still in business today under their original names. Most either succumbed or were absorbed into other truck-building companies.

<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=414 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=middle>Make or Model of truck</TD><TD vAlign=top align=middle>Period of vehicle manufacture</TD><TD vAlign=top align=middle></TD><TD vAlign=top align=middle></TD></TR><TR><TD>Mack</TD><TD>1901-date</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Kelly</TD><TD>1910-1929</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>White</TD><TD>1900-1903
1900-1995</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Garford</TD><TD>1908-1933</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Locomobile</TD><TD>1901-1916 </TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Sauer</TD><TD>1911-1918</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>GMC</TD><TD>1911-date</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Ford</TD><TD>1905-date</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Federal</TD><TD>1910-1959</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Wilcox</TD><TD>1910-1927</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Corbitt</TD><TD>1910-1952,
1957-1958</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Dart</TD><TD>1903-____</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Denby</TD><TD>1914-1930</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Harvey</TD><TD>1911-1932</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Indiana</TD><TD>1911-1939</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Sullivan</TD><TD>1910-1923</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Wisconsin</TD><TD>1912-1926</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Hewitt-Ludlow</TD><TD>1912-1926</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Doane</TD><TD>1916-1948</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Reo</TD><TD>1906-1967</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Hendrickson</TD><TD>1913-____</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Pierce-Arrow</TD><TD>1907, 1909-1935</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>​

 

I think thats the one im talking about, the guy (John Nichols), Lives maybe 4 blocks from me, in Gig Harbor washington, ill see if i can get a picture, the Velie is disassembled at the moment, (We had to in order to fit it in out storage space). and we think we damaged the frame, and cab, but if its really destoyed, we will either find a parts car (there is one in texas somewhere) or just take the cowl, grille, and radiator, and make it a hot-rod, either or, ill look for a picture of the parts.

 

Actually, thats IS the exact truck i was refering to, but i can get any pictures you want of it, I think he has a diamond REO, but thats less important.

Based off what i saw, its a chain drive.

Pics or no?

 

Sure! We love pix on this thread!

 

Here's fairly breaking news: The fella over on the ACCA forums with the '23-registered but incomplete Dixie Flyer had put our an appeal in 2008 for other Flyer owners to speak up, so that he can restore the car correctly. A second Dixie Flyer, a 1919, was then found in Iceland.

On March 30, '10, a gentleman in Texas saw the posts and reported that HE has a complete 1920 Dixie Flyer and was ready to supply photos! SO . . . THREE Dixie Flyers in existence, one -- complete -- in the U.S., two in other countries!!! CONGRATS to AACA for running a well-oiled informational machine!

Now, this brings me to a related question. Later Flyers used Herschell-Spillman engines. But, I ran across the fact that Herschell-Spillman (North Tonawonda, NY) actually built complete cars from 1904 to 1907. Was anyone else aware of this? Moreover, anyone have a photo or a pictorial advertisement SHOWING one of these RARE (extinct?) cars???

 

Dates are given different ways some state 1904 - 1907, some state 1901 - 1907. But there was also a Spillman automobile made by Hershell Spillman and that one is listed as 1901 - 1904.

A picture of a 1904 Hershell - Spillman can be found at the bottom of this page:
http://www.nthistorymuseum.org/Collections/herschell.html

Had trouble trying to copy and paste the picture.

Article on North Tonawanda auto manufacturing here:
http://www.nthistorymuseum.org/Public Relations/remyes011507.html

And this article seems to indicate the total number of vehicles were four...........so that tends to indicate to me, the odds of survival of any of them are pretty slim.

 

And here's a great picure of a Hershell Spillman ad
http://www.nthistorymuseum.org/Collections/1917herschellad.html

 

Swi, CONGRATULATIONS! Man, you did it. AND there were only FOUR made ??? WOW. Looks like we can add another name to the list of apparently EXTINCT American automobiles: 1901-04 Herschell-Spillman ! This made my day, and it's only 7 a.m.! THANKS AGAIN. -- Jimi (Gosh, and SunRoofCord came up with an illustration of a 1912 Marquette just the other day!!! What a week.)

PS: This article is FULL of great tidbits about the relationship between Herschell & Spillman (who was, in fact, Herschell's brother-in-law), as WELL as the carousel-building business -- one of America's oldest, longest-lived and FAMOUS!​

 

So, in careful re-reading, four sounds likely -- with one known in 1901, one in 1904 and at least a prototype in 1907. That's darn few cars. So, they must have been pricey, keeping them from selling ???

 

This ad blows me away, SWI. Tells a ton about why H-S engines were well respected and in demand

. . . AND, this is only the SECOND picture of a 1917-1918-era Murray !!! Tony Murray down in Louisiana is going to be excited!

​

Now, check out this H-S V-8, will ya? Exhaust-in-valley. AND, unless my eyes deceive me, this '17 engine appears to be OHV ???

 

Seems as if some neat things have been falling into place these last few days, as far as ultra-rare and extinct makes! SWI just found another pic of a WWI-era Murray, and I just this week stumbled onto what I believe to be proof-positive that there was a DIRECT LINK between Murray of 1917-1918 and the Murray-Mac of 1921-1922, even though the first was made in Pittsburgh, the latter on the East Coast somewhere. A family link had SEEMED remote, since the two makes were separated by a two-year lapse when NO Murray-named cars were produced. And one ran on an H-S engine, the other a Beaver.

But, if you look closely at the specs on the two makes, below, you'll notice that there is a SERIES designation that is common to BOTH! Folks, this is too much of a coincidence (IMO) to BE a coincidence!
-------------------------------------------------------

Murray, 1918 series, Herschell-Spillman 331.8-CID L-head, 128" wheelbase. (70-T series, same specs)

Murray-Mac 1922, 70-T series (!!! Link to Murray!), Beaver 301.1-CID valve-in-head, 131 wb., came in roadster & touring, both priced at $4,250. (Note: Specs were same for 1921)

 

I'm not sure the Hershell Spillman V-8 was an OHV.
In any event, H-S motors were used all over, powering carousels of course, marine and farm application, and also by auto and truck manufacturers like Murray, Austin Climber, Ahrens-Fox(Fire Truck), Peerless, Frick, Crow-Elkhart, Bell, Mason, Dixie Flyer, Abbot-Detroit, Apex, and who knows how many more.
They sure made a bunch!

 

Some postings on the AACA Forum: Interesting Stuff

I am trying to find out what auto companies used the Hirshell-Spillman V-8 engine from 1915 to 1920.
Thank you, RHL<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Hi Green Dragon, for years I have been researching the Pan American of Decatur IL, 1917-22 and they used Hirschell Spillman sixes in most of their cars. I have found only one in existence, in Australia.

I understand there is a 1923 Climber on display in the Pettit Jean museum in Arkansas which has a four cylinder Herschell Spillman.

I would be interested in anything you can find on this or to compare notes, you can PM me on this anytime, thanks, Todd C<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Todd,
I have been researching the Hirshell-Spillman V-8 engines. I have some information on 4 & 6 cylinder engines and a list of cars that used these engines. The list is too long to put here but if you E mail me your address I will make copies and send them to you. [email protected]
I have a 1916 Peerless V-8 and for years some people have told me that this is a Hershall-Spillman engine and yet others have told me that Peerless made their own engines and I have pictures of the Peerless engine plant making the V-8. I saw a H.S V-8 a few years ago and it is exactly the same as my Peerless V-8. I have manuals for both and they are exactly the same. In 1916 Peerless made some major changes and improvements to this engine for the 1917 series II. I am curious to see if Hershell-Spillman made the same changes. The H.S historical group can not find any connection with them and Peerless and they have no records of selling engines to Peerless. Some think that Peerless and H.S. worked together to develop the V-8. If H.S. made the same inprovements as Peerless it may prove that they were working together.
My list of users of the H.S. V-8: Common Sense Tractor,Sandusky Tractor, Murray automobile, Daniels,Douglas, Madison and Monarch. Peerless is not on this list that came from the archives.
RHL<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

In MoToR, "The National Magazine of Motoring", Specification Tables, ca.1923, there is listed a "1918 Ross 8" with an 8 cyl. 3 1/4 x 5 3 main bearing "Spillman" engine. These specs are the same as shown for the 1919 Douglas 8, and Its engine is also referred to as just Spillman. So Dragon, assuming it is a V8, you may be able to add the Ross to your list.
In subsequent years the name Herschell-Spillman begins to appear in listings, but no 8 cylinder H-S engines are found for any makes, only 4 and 6 cylinder.
Does this raise a question regarding whether or not Herschell was in the picture before 1920, or could it have just been an editing error?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

G. N. Georgano's "The Complete Encyclopedia of Motorcars" shows the Ross with a V8 Herschell-Spillman engine.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Thank you for the information, I will ad Ross to my list. The Herschell-Spillman Company exsisted from 1899 to 1918 when they changed the name to Spillman Engineering because Allan Herschell had retired in 1913 but in 1916 he decided to go back into business in direct compatition to H.S. called Allan Herschell Company. After 1918 they were called the Spillman engines. They were still making carrousels.
According to my manual on H.S. they made two V-8 engines, the V and the V-a. They were identical except for the bore. The V had a 3" bore and V-a 3 1/4" bore, 70 & 80 horsepower. The Peerless V-8 was 3 1/4" bore same as the H.S. V-a engine. The firing order: R-1, L-1, R-3, L-3, R-4, L-4, R-2, L-2. Like two four cylinder engines on the same crankshaft. They weren't balanced and at 40 mph the engine would start to rock. In 1916 (for the 1917 model) Peerless changed the firing order, did some counterbalancing, and changed the valve mechanism and made this a really good engine that Peerless used into the mid 20's. This is why I would like to know if H.S. made the same changes that Peerless did. Thank you for replying. RHL<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

This may,,not,,,help,,,I thought Cole and Peerless both used Northway engines,,Northway plant is now the National Guard bldg in Natick Ma,,Northway built engines from around 1904,,not sure of any dates or where they started or connections and I have no paper on this,,so it is maybee a lead to disprove,,There was a Burt Northway,,mentioned,,,Good luck,,,Ben<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

I don't know what engine the Cole used but in 1901 Peerless used the De-Dion-Buton single cylinder engine and 1902 Peerless had designed their own two cylinder engine and cast it and machined it in their own foundry and engine shops. From that time until 1929 Peerless made all their own engines. In 1928 Continental Motors bought a large chunk of Peerless stock and tried to take over the Company. There was a rumer in Cleveland that Peerless was going to be moved to Detroit. They weren't able to take over but they did get Peerless to use their engines for 1929. The last Peerless 6 was made in 1929 and 1930 Peerless used only Continental engines. The Peerless engine plant then started working on the new Peerless V-12 and V-16 engines.
My question is, was there some association between Herschell-Spillman and Peerless on the V-8 engine? I have a Peerless 1916 Series 1 engine and a manual on the !916 Hirschell-Spillman Va engine and they are identical, same castings, same firing order, every nut and bolt is the same. And yet I have not been able to find any connection between the two companies.
RHL<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Any discussion of the pioneering V-8 cars in the U.S. should by all means mention the Cole Eights. I'd love to own a Cole someday. According to what I 've read though, the Cole and Cadillac companies both used Northway engines, and Northway was a division of G.M. in the mid-1910's. If I'm not mistaken, Cadillac introduced their 1915-model V-8 cars in late 1914, and Cole came out with their 1916-model V-8 car a little later. Not to be outdone, Peerless entered the fray in late 1915 with their 1916-model V-8 car.

Unfortunately, I don't know if Cole or Peerless was earlier to market with V-8. The Green Dragon is extememley knowledgeable about Peerless V-8's, and he may know. What's funny is that my grandfather had a Cole Eight, but I never saw it

I had a 1917 Daniels with a H/S engine and experianced the "rocking motion" mentioned above never knew why,very interesting.Phil<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

 

I think we can put the Herschell-Spillman OHV V8 issue to rest. It is a Side Valve.

About This Peerless Model 56

Lot No. 655 Chassis No. 15267 Estimate: $50,000-$60,000 US AUCTION DATE: To be auctioned on Friday, October 9, 2009 80 bhp, 331.8 cu. in. L-head V8 engine, three-speed manual transmission, solid front axle with semi-elliptic leaf springs, platform rear suspension with semi-elliptic leaf springs, two-wheel mechanical drum brakes. Wheelbase: 125" The Peerless Manufacturing Company was a manufacturer of clothes wringers. In 1901, the Cleveland, Ohio firm took a license from DeDion in France to build what it called the “Motorette,” a single-cylinder tricycle. This was followed by two- and four-passenger versions and soon by 12- and 16-horsepower vertical twins. By 1904, the Peerless line included 24- and 35-horsepower fours with touring and limousine bodies. Key to these developments was engineer Louis P. Mooers. Mooers had joined Peerless in 1900, putting the Motorettes into production and designing the twin-cylinder engines. Mooers took Peerless racing. In 1902 he prepared a car for the Gordon Bennett race in Ireland. Forced out by tire trouble, he tried again in 1903, but was out after the first lap. The car’s greatest fame would come with Barney Oldfield at the wheel, dressed in green to match its color. Its four exhausts belched fire, and it is said that young boys dubbed it the “Green Dragon.” Peerless, by now one of the prestige “Three Ps” with Packard and Pierce-Arrow, began building sixes in 1907. The big 60-horsepower cars dominated in image, if not in numbers, at prices up to $7,200. In 1916, following the lead of Cadillac, Peerless introduced a V8, a 331.8 cubic inch side valve unit built by Herschell-Spillman. It would remain the only powerplant until a lower-priced Model 6-70 was introduced in 1925. Restored some ten years ago by a previous owner, this Model 56 Peerless was purchased by the consignor within the last few years. Nicely finished in light blue with black fenders, it is of four-door “Cloverleaf” configuration, with a close-coupled four-seat cockpit and stylish tail with a small luggage compartment. It is upholstered in black leather and has a black canvas top. The brightwork is all genuine nickel. The Herschell-Spillman V8 runs well – it is the third generation of this design and the most refined. It features a Ball and Ball carburetor, which is said to be the first progressive four-barrel type in the industry. The car is also fitted with a Kellogg water-cooled four-cylinder tire pump. An invited participant in the 2008 Kirkland, Washington Concours d’Elegance, it is offered with an owners manual. Peerless cars of this era seldom come on the market. This is a chance to acquire an excellent example. Addendum Please note this car is titled by the engine number.

 

Starin, North Tonawanda NY (1903 - 1904) The Starin Co. of N. Tonawanda produced a single cylinder runabout on a 72 inch wheelbsse chassis fitted with a two speed planetary transmission, and single chain drive. Offered in 2 models, a 6 hp at $800 and a 8 hp at $1000. Production began in 1903, during which Starin claimed 5 years experience in automobile building without mention of what had been built. Production ended in 1904 then the Starin Co. became a used car dealership. "The Acme of automotive perfection" had been the Starin's grandiose claim.

Anyone know if one of these still exist???????

 

Wilson Automobile Manufacturing Company was a manufacturer of automobiles in Wilson, New York between 1903 and 1905. Their automobile model was sold as the Niagara.
The 1904 Niagara was a runabout model. It could seat 2 or 4 passengers and sold for $850. The vertically-mounted water-cooled single-cylinder engine, situated at the rear of the car, produced 5 hp (3.7 kW). A 2-speed sliding transmission was fitted. The steel and wood-framed car weighed 1100 lb (499 kg). Full elliptic rear suspension and semi-elliptic front suspension was fitted.
The assets of the company were purchased by the La Salle-Niagara Company in 1905 who then built the car until 1906.
Not to be confused with "other" auto manufacturers in the area that also used the "Niagara" name. Gee, think that one's a natural in Niagara County near Niagara Falls?

The LaSalle-Niagara was not a continuation of the Niagara but a completely new car built under the Patents of
George E. Whiteside and offered as a chain drive or shaft drive four at $1250 or $2250 respectively. The LaSalle Niagara plant at 91st and Shantz was a former button factory. This automobile venture was a short one.

 

Jeesh, this is a LOT of info and GOOD, too!

Funny how one thing leads to another, but I am reminded that KING entered the V-8 field in 1916 also, advertising his engine as America's AFFORDABLE V-8.

Beyond the fact that King had designed the so-called "Silent Northern" earlier (a six, I think), I cannot say whether Charles King's V-8 was an engine of his own design. But since he was a consumate engineer, I can't imagine him buying such an important mill from someone else, just so he could say "V-8." And besides, "bought" engines come with a price, so I can't believe he could buy a V-8 and then base his ad campaign on that. Make any sense? And, yeah, I have little more than a couple of scraps of info to go on. There just doesn't seem to be much HARD info on the KING automoibles, folks!

 

Dumbass me. I stumbled across the answer to #3090 almost as soon as I asked.

Chales King, indeed designed his own V-8 engines, and from 1916 all the way through the company's demise in 1925, Kings were ALL V-8-powered, though displacements changed with time.

(And thanks, HJ, for the "side-valve" info on the H-S V-8!)

 

Funny that a company whose original purpose was NOT automotive should have its engines in SO many different makes in the early years. Including 4, 6 and V-8 mills, Herschell-Spillman (AKA just Spillman early on) supplied engines to nearly 40 makes. And I'm searching for an exact or close number on V-8s specifically, but it was something in the range of 15 marques, just from memory on that.

I found the info on Continental's muscling into Peerless affairs very interesting. The data shos that Perrless usage of Continental engines steadily increased during the 1920s, until '30 when it was three Continental engines, only.

 

From HJ's post: In 1916, following the lead of Cadillac, Peerless introduced a V8, a 331.8 cubic inch side valve unit built by Herschell-Spillman. It would remain the only powerplant until a lower-priced Model 6-70 was introduced in 1925. ............... The Herschell-Spillman V8 runs well &#8211; it is the third generation of this design and the most refined. It features a Ball and Ball carburetor, which is said to be the first progressive four-barrel type in the industry.

Jimi: Now that's a GREAT passage! I honestly think there are a lot of people who don't think four-barrels came alone in vast use until the mid-'50s.

 

[Of course, that last line in #3093 should have said "along." Fat-Finger Syndrome!]


Okay, I have looked to no avail for a photo or illustration of the 1917 Majestic, made only in 1917 in New York City. I suppose I might as well be looking for a Barbarino! But, at least I've found more tech info on the Majestic (showing that, unlike the questionable Barbarino, the Majestic actually got into production -- and in TWO series). Note that this is not to be confused with the Majestic of '25-'27 which were built specifically for the taxi trade.

Though I still do not know WHO was behind the Majestic, it came in a base M Series riding on a 125-inch wheelbase and selling for a mid-price $1,500 pricetag. The M Series offered a full four body styles, including a four-passenger roadster, seven-passenger tourist, five-passenger touring, and a four-door of imprecise body style but seating five. All M Series Majestics ran an engine of 282.7-CID, so I am guessing that L-Head was a six-cylinder. Incidentally, the company claimed all engines were their OWN (which I guess in this case means they paid for the engines they ordered in to their assembly plant!).

Perfect case in point, then, is the big A Series Majestic with a fully 10-inch-longer wheelbase and an L-Head engine which one source says was a Herschell-Spillman V-8. At 331.8-CID, it surely sounds like an eight, and the displacement seems to match one of H-S's commonly offered motors. (I wonder if BOTH engines were H-S, in fact.)

Now, the big A Series came in three body styles: four-seater roadster, five-passenger touring and a seven-seater tourist -- all offered at a steeper $3,000 cost.

Auto historian Fred Colvin confirmed that the Majestic was new on the U.S. auto scene for 1917. Pricing wasn't cheap, but neither was it unreasonable for the time. Why did they go under so quickly? I wonder if 1917 -- with America in WWI -- would have been an optimal time for entry into the auto market ??? Anyone have any thoughts?

SO, can anyone come up with a pictorial advertisement or factory photo of one of these elusive beasts???

 

Maybe we can build on one piece at a time like Johnny Cash did the Caddy.




Description: Threaded cap from a 1917 4.6 litre V-8 Majestic with HYotchkiss drive. The Majestic Motor Co, New York, NY made only a open five seater model for one year

http://www.hubcapcollector.com/gallery/

 

Maybe we can build on one piece at a time like Johnny Cash did the Caddy.



Description: Threaded cap from a 1917 4.6 litre V-8 Majestic with
HYotchkiss drive. The Majestic Motor Co, New York, NY made
only a open five seater model for one year.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jimi: Thanks, HJ!!! A LOGO is a darn good start, especially considering the lock-step look of most assembled cars in the WWI era!

To put things in perspective: I honestly have come to the conclusion that MANY auto MAKES got onto someone's official list by making the all-important appearances at the debut showings in auto shows. I had JOKED about Barbarino which did just that . . . then built only, maybe, 10 cars.

Well, hell. Maybe Majestic is JUST such a case!


[BTW, that Johnny Cash song is a CLASSIC!]