TECH: The extensive yet incomplete Ford V8 Swapper's Guide!

I'm not claiming this to be the absolute Last Word on this subject, because Lord knows that you could fill entire volumes of Encyclopedias with information relevant to swapping engines, transmissions and other parts around on Ford vehicles...but I present it to you only because I found it frustrating to chase down all these pictures and images and take notes and stuff from all over Creation, and I thought it would be kinda nice to have this stuff all in one place!

What started out as a little research project to help me with my current project car, kind of snowballed once I got to looking this stuff up, and getting a little miffed that nobody ever seemed to put it all together into a handy guide where someone could litterally look at this stuff side-by-side or at least relatively close together and help them sort out some issues they're likely to run into when swapping what I call the 'Modern Era' (small block, Cleveland, 351/400M, FE and 429/460) Ford V8s into whatever vehicle they may be tinkering with! Ha Ha...the small block Chevy guys have it so easy, don't they?! Maybe having ready access to this stuff will lead to a few more FORD powered rods out there?!

Let's start out with a brief overview of "The Players" in this particular field. While they're certainly are more Ford V8s to consider, such as Flatheads, Y-blocks, and the newer Modular engines...I limited my focus here to what I grew up around and what I stll consider to be the cheap and easy to find engines of the 60s and 70s.

FE

The oldest player in this arena is the FE big block. It appeared around 1958 and lasted until 1978 in passenger cars and light trucks, so there are PLENTY of them out there for the picking! Sure, the more exotic variants such as the 428 Cobra-Jets, 427s and 406 Tri-powers are a little rare and pricey, but the common 352 and especially the 390 can be had for a song and they provide stable, dependable power in a study package! Easily identified by it's large "Y" block design and the wide intake manifold that makes up part of the cylinder heads, the FE engine sports five valve cover bolts per side...an old Ford V8 identification trick!

Small Block

Introduced in 1962 as a 221 cube motor, the small block package has been around the longest, lasting up into the 1990s! Displacements include 221, 255, 260, 289, 302 and the 351 Windsor (351W). For some purposes, I will also include the 351 Cleveland (351C) in parts of this thread, because motor mounts and transmission bellhousing patterns interchange between the Cleveland and Small Block engines, although they are different in most other ways. The "Windsor" small block is compact and light, and thanks largely to the popularity of the 5.0 Mustang crowd, it enjoys a healthy selection of aftermarket parts support and can make impressive power numbers! Dimensionally, the 221-302 engines are the same externally, and the 351W looks much the same, although it's taller deck height gives it a wider intake manifold. Small blocks feature six valve cover bolts per side, except for the Boss 302 which runs Cleveland style heads with eight valve cover bolts per head, as does the Cleveland engine.

Cleveland

I will give this one it's own very brief overview, just to help seperate it from the small blocks and the 351/400M, for which it is often associated and confused with. The Cleveland was around the shortest time of any of these engines as far as US production goes...debuting in 1968 and lasting only until 1974 in production cars. As mentioned earlier, it shares motor mount and bellhousing bolt patterns with the small block, but otherwise it looks more like it's 351/400M siblings. You'll count eight valve cover bolts per head on a Cleveland, and you will also spot a "2" or a "4" cast into the upper lefthand corner of the head as you look down on the valve cover area with the exhaust ports pointing towards you. This designates whether the engine was a 2 barrel or 4 barrel engine from the factory. Several aftermarket intakes have been produced to allow the use of a 4 barrel carb on 2 barrel heads, but from the factory, Ford only put 2 barrel carbs o two barrel heads. I could into the "Aussie" heads and such, but I wnat to get through these introductions and concentrate on the meat and potatoes of swapping these different engines, rather than trying to explore all of the numerous performance advantages and tricks associated with them.

351/400M

This one confuses a lot of folks. Many mistake it for a Cleveland, and it does in fact look a lot like one. The biggest "giveaway" is the bellhousing and motor mount bolt patterns, which it shares in common with the 429/460, and the lack of a "2" or a "4" cast into the heads, since all 351/400M engines were said to be two barrel motors. Many parts interchange with the Cleveland...but they really are two different engines, ESPECIALLY when it comes to swapping and mounting them into different chassis!!

429/460

Also known as the "Lima" series or "385" series, this is the monster motor of the bunch! Physically huge and very heavy, it's bulk makes it a difficult fit into tight quarters, but it is a popular motor with decent performance potential and aftermarket support...so it deserves a serious look if you subscribe to the old "No replacement for displacement" school of thought! Featuring seven valve cover bolts per head, this giant is hard to mistake for anything else. Released in 1968 and built into the 1990s, it's been around a while and can be picked up cheap, making it a big-cube bargain!

Below is a chart showing general dimensions and weights for the engines mentioned above. Actual measurments may be a little different, depending on what accessories are on or off the engine (I found my 390 to be a little shorter than advertised, but that's without a fan or fan spacer on it, for example)...but this gives you a good starting point, and can help you figure out which may best fit your vehicle, and also help you to gauge how much weight you may be adding.

As you can see from the chart, the old FE isn't nearly as heavy as many believe it to be...coming in about 50lbs heavier than a small block Chevy...but physically larger, of course.

The small blocks are the featherweights of the bunch, with the Clevelands and M-series engines no too far behind, and the hulking 429/460 motors earning top honors in both weight and size!

 

Great Post!

Flatman

 

Alright...now, let's start with the Small Blocks and look at some popular over-the-counter motor mounts. In many cases, I labeled them with what appears to be a specific application, where in fact they will fit many. For example, the same mount for a 1967 Mustang with a 289 also fits a 1970 Cougar with a 351W or 351C! Yes, dealing with Fords can be a little confusing at first...but once you develop a sense for how they work, it's easy stuff.

The mounts pictured and labeled here do not represent EVERY possible OEM style small block mount, but they show a general selection of popular applications that you can look at in one picture and see what might work best for your particular project...and then you'll know what to ask for at the parts store.

Be aware that in a case such as the Granada mounts, you will need the plates that bolt to the engine block itself. These are considered a "non wear item" and aren't included when you buy the mounts. Just something to keep in mind.

These mounts will bolt up to 221-302 small blocks, 351W and 351C engines.

 

Since we're talking (and looking at) motor mounts here, lets take a look at some for the 429/460 engines. These will also fit the 351/400M engines, just as a reminder!

Same deal applies here...each mount pictured may fit several applications over several years, but it gives you a side-by-side look at some of the popular applications and gives you something to work with when searching for the mount that may be best for your custom swap situation...

 

Okay...time for a look at some popular OEM mounts for the big FE engine. Most of what you buy as mounts for an FE will either have to work in conjunction with some specific OEM brackets, or will use a stud-type of mount into a bracket on the cassis once the mount is bolted to the engine block.

In this case, I'm also including a picture of a 1974 MUstang II V6 mount, and a diagram showing how one might use that mount, along with a custom made flat bracket to come up with a more conventional "bolt-through" type of mount for an FE engine. (In case you wanted to do something COMPLETEY stupid and masochistic like putting a 390 into a 74 Mustang II!! Ha Ha!!)

I can tell you, that the two bolt bosses on the FE block stick out far enough to allow you to bolt that Mustang II mount up once you shorten the stud a pinch. Don't ask me how I know, though!

As with the small block mounts, the applications I listed are just but one of several. The F100/F150 FE mount is the same all the way up until 1978, and the 66 Fairlane mount would also fit 67-70 Mustangs and Cougars, and so on.

 

Now that you have some idea as to what motor mounts you'll need to set the Ford V8 of your choice into your chosen chassis, lets take a few moments to look at oil pans. With many Ford engines, there can often be the normal front sump pan, or a rear sump variant (actually more like a dual sump really, with the larger sump out back) depending on what vehicle the engine was installed in at the factory.

When it come s to engine swaps, your chassis crossmember, steering and other obstacles may dictate whether or not you'll need the conventional Ford front sump pan, or the rear sump version for your engine. In any case, you will also need to get the correct oil pump pickup tube for the pan you select.

In the photos, I've added a letter F with an arrow (< or >) to indicate what side is the front of the pan to help avoid soem confusion.

Might as well start with the small blocks...

(Though a photo is lacking here, the typical 221-302 front sump pan looks very much like the 69-78 351W pan pictured and would be found in most car chassis up until the Fox chassis)

Note: "Fox Chassis" = 1979-93 Mustang, 1978-up Fairmont, many T-birds and Cougars of the 80s, etc.

 

Thanks...but it's just getting started! I'll be adding more and more to it over the next few days, and going back to edit and add footnotes where I think they may be needed for clarity and simplicity.

(As if anything is truly simple where Ford interchangability is concerned!!!)

 

I'm gonna be my own damn hero!

Hell... your already mine
Killer Post

 

Fat Hack, your tech posts are great. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Only wish my little peanut brain could remember everything. I'll really be confused when it gets moved to the tech files. Of course I could just subscribe to this thread, duh.

 

Ha Ha...that signature line was just something I blurted out in reference to my current project, but I thought it was cool, so I stuck it up there!

(It's what drove me to start compiling all of this stuff...I needed to find a motor to swap into my current project and after spending days chasing pictures, specs, part numbers, dimensions and what-not, I decided to go off the deep end and run a 390 big block! I said something to the effect that "If I'd ever seen it done before I'd think whoever did it was some sort of hero", but since I haven't seen it done before, I just laughed and said, "Hell, I'll be my OWN damn hero!")

There will be more to come...but I'm off to bed now! Spent most of the day re-mounting an alternator and making motor mount adapter plates and such!!

 

390 eh sounds Kool I always like to see ford in hotrods or hell anything so many people put chevys in cars for me it just gets old looking at distributors in the back of every car you look at

 

FE's ended in 76 not to rain just wanted to help

 

Thanks for the clarification! My mind is a jumble of Ford facts at the moment, and I had a 78 F250 that someone dumped a 360 FE into, so I guess I was thinking about that old rig!!

 

Where were we? Oh yeah...oil pans!

Moving on from the small block, I'd just like to post a reminder that 351W engines use different oil pans than their smaller counterparts. They look very much the same at a glance, though...so be sure you are indeed buying a 351W pan if that's the motor you're using...and a 221-302 pan if you're running one of those.

When we get to the 351C and the 351/400M engines, things get a little easier. One thing that DOES interchange between those two engine families is the oil pan, so you can use a 400M pan on a Cleveland and vice-versa.

The Cleveland was a passenger car engine, and...as I said earlier, was only in production for a short time here in the States. As a result, it was installed in chassis that accepted the conventional Ford front sump style oil pan. 351/400M engines also used a similar pan in 2wd pickups.

The 351/400M engine was also used in 4x4 pickups with a dual sump type of pan featuring a larger rear sump area, and these will bolt onto a Cleveland as well, if need be.

Additionaly, there were a few aftermarket oil pans available for the 351C as a swap pan to put that engine into Fox chassis Mustangs and Capris, and that pan was more of a dedicated rear sump style, looking a lot like the 302 Fox chassis pan in profile. Finding one now may prove difficult, but it was available back in the early 80s.

(A friend of mine built a 81 Capri with a 351C and used specialty swap headers and oil pan. I remember that the stuff was very pricey even way back then...one drawback to running a Cleveland!)

As with any othe roil pan swap, you will also need the correct oil pump pickup tube for the application that the new pan is from.

Here is a look at the two basic factory 351C and 351/400M oil pans...

 

Now we come to the FE oil pans. Most of them used what looks to be a shallow front sump pan. This was common in passenger car and 2wd pickup applications, and is the pan most likely to be on most FE engines you find. It fits into the typical Ford chassis originally designed for front sump pans.

4x4 trucks of the 70s came with more of a rear sump type of dual sump pan, and you can find these on 4wd 352 powered rigs of that era. (I don't have a picture of one, but it is a factory item).

If space is unlimited beneath your engine and maximum oil capacity is your goal, then you can run the HUGE pan found mostly on 360 FE engines in heavy duty trucks and such! In a hot rod chassis with no crossmember directly below the pan, this might be an option...but at today's oil prices, you might wanna think twice! Ha ha!!

 

Great post,... thanks for spending the time to reasearch this stuff,... it would be great to have posts like this for other engine makes as well.

 

Last, but not least in our oil pan overview, we will look at some 429/460 pans. Front sump pans for these engines can be sourced from OEM applications such as 1971 Mustangs and Cougars originally equipped with 429 engines, as well as 1970-71 Torino and Cyclone 429 cars, and Rancheros up to 1974.

Rear sump pans for the 429/460 are commonly available from the aftermarket for folks who want to run a 460 in a 1980s to 1990s F150, and another rear sump pan is available to swap these monster motors into Fox chassis cars.

HUGE oil pans can also be found on heavy trucks with the 370 V8, which is a sister engine to the 429/460 passenger car and light truck engines.

 

After you figure out your motor mounts and oil pans...you may want to move onto transmission selection. Now, you could fill a pretty thick book with all the ins and outs of Ford transmission availability and interchangeability, but I'll try to hit the highlights at least!

As stated before, the small block engines and the 351C engines both accept the same bellhousings, except for the 221, 260 and early 289 engines which used a five bolt bellhousing. Newer 289 engines, along with all 255, 302, 351W and 351C engines use the common six bolt bellhousing. This means that you can bolt a Cleveland up to any transmission that fit your 302, including C4, C6, FMX and AOD automatics (carefull with your flex plate selection there!), as well as a host of manual transmissions from the old Top Loader 3 and 4 speed models to the SROD four speeds and the T5.

351/400M and 429/460 engines also share a common bellhousing pattern, allowing them to interchange as far as transmission selection goes. Enterprising rodders have long ago learned that there was a bellhousing produced in 1975 for soem 351M engines that allowed it to be bolted to a C4 automatic, and these pop up from time to time and are sought out by people wishing to run the smaller, lighter and more efficient C4 transmission behind their 351/400M engines and even behind 429/460 engines! If trans space is limited, this is a good choice, as the C4 is the smallest of the Ford automatics, and also the lightest. A built 460 can wreak havock on an unsuspecting C4 in short order, but in stock or mild applications, especially in light vehicles, it makes an excellent combination. C4 transmissions can be built to handle racing engines is something a little more serious is your game plan.

As you probably figured out by now, the C4 has a removeable bellhousing, so it can be bolted to different engines, from six cylinders on up to 460s with the proper bellhousing. It should also be noted that some bellhousings feature a provision for factory cable-style shifters, while others do not...depending upon original application. Also, there are two basic types of C4 transmissions, "pan fill" and "case fill". As the names imply, one style has the dipstick/filler tube going into the aluminum trans case, while the other style has the tube going directly into the pan. "Pan fill" cases are generally found in trucks, while the "case fill" transmissions come mostly in passenger cars.

Here are a few C4 bellhousings to look at...

 

keep it comin!

great post.

 

Thank you, you are indeed a Hero.

 

Another look at a 351/400M or 429/460 C4 bellhousing....

 

Now, when it comes to putting some other automatics behind your Ford engine, you don't have the option of switching bellhousings. C6 transmissions come with three different transmission cases, one to bolt up to a small block (or Cleveland), one to bolt to a 351/400M or 429/460, and one to bolt to an FE engine. All are C6 transmissions, but are specific to a given engine family. You will need to find the C6 trans to fit your engine, so be sure you know what you are getting before you put your money down. Buying a small block C6 when you actually have a 400M swinging from your engine hoist won't get the job done!

 

Although it isn't favored by many, I thought I would breifly mention the FMX transmssion. It will work as far as having SOMETHING to connect your engien to the driveshaft...but it's heavy (cast iron center housing!) and performance upgrade parts for it are about nill! Still, many a Cleveland engine from the early 70s came hooked to an FMX, so if you buy a complete engine and transmission, or a 'donor vehicle' from that time frame, you may very well end up with an FMX on your hands. For a daily driver where weight isn't a major concern and quarter mile times aren't your primary focus, the FMX will get you around town just fine. But...when it breaks or poops out on you...you may want to consider a C4 or C6 to replace it with!

 

The AOD (automatic overdrive) transmission for Ford small blocks has become increasingly popular over the years, and it really works well behind stock or mild small blocks in many cases. Be advised that you must hook up the throttle valve (TV) cable and adjust it properly using the pressure ports on the trans before you go driving the car, or you'll waste the transmission in short order! On some earlier Ford automatics, you could leave the "kick down" linkage disconnected...but you don't want to do that with an AOD!

(Most earlier Ford automatics used a mechanical 'kick down' linkage. Rather large and clumsy looking, but effective. The AOD uses a cable.)

 

Hack,

Not sure about your '68 debut for the 351C - perhaps developed then, but don't think it found its way into a prodution vehicle until the '70 model year (despite many Mustang owners swearing their '69 came with a 351C).

Couple more small block oil pans to consider too: The sought after Van pan found on '60s & early '70s econolines and the Explorer pan.

Great stuff - keep up the work. Looking forward to the dizzying array of front covers, pullies, & accessory drive combinations! You sure picked a doozy of a topic!

 

Going to a manual transmission for your Ford swap opens up some options to you. In the 60s and early 70s, you normally found either a Top Loader 3 speed, or a Top Loader 4 speed in most passenger car applications. Some had different tailshafts based upon application (especially the 3 speeds. They could have a stubby floor-shift tail housing, or a longer one like the 4 speed, with or without floor shift provisions. Cars that were originally column shifted usually have a 'clean' tail shaft housing for example).

Bellhousings, again, are specific to the engine family you're working with, but like the C4...the same Top Loader trans can be bolted up to different Ford V8s by swapping bellhousings.

It is also worth noting, that Ford offered what most call a "big spline" Top Loader four speed in some big block musclecars, but the bolt pattern is the same as far as connecting it to the bellhousing goes.

Lets look at a few Top Loaders and bellhousings...

(Not pictured is a small block Top Loader bellhousing, but it is a very common and easy-to-find item).

Also worth noting, is the one of the unique aluminum case Top Loader overdrive transmissions with the rail-type shifter. This was a seldom used late 70s animal that still turns up from time to time. As is the case with most Ford stuff...there are numerous subtle variations on most of these parts.

 

You're right as usual...1970 is the official begining of the 351C in passenger car applications, but Ford had been developing it since 1968, with the head design finding it's way onto the 1969 Boss 302 engines before the Cleveland was officially 'born'!

Ha Ha...at this poit, the whole front cover, FEAD options are a ways away...but you're right...this could go on for a very LONG time!

I hope that others will post their pictures, notes, observations and experiences as well so that we can build a fairly comprehensive Ford V8 swapping thread for easy future reference! MUCH easier than tracking all this stuff down from all over the place!

 

I am not so sure that the 351 C and 400 oil pans will interchange, the reason being that the 351M-400 engines have a 3" main journal, and the 351C has a 2.75" main journal. I have a couple of engines in the shed, so I will check and see. Also, there is another 400 block that is worth mentioning called the 400-FMX block. It is a regular 400 block, but it has small block motor mount pads, as well as the small block bellhousing pattern. Apparently sometime in the early 70's, there was a supply shortage of C-6 trannys to go behind 400 engines, but there were alot of small block FMX trannys around, so Ford tooled up a block that would allow the use of the readily available FMX's. A good place to look for one is in early 70'sLTD's. These blocks are sought after by Pantera owners as they will bolt in place of a 351Cleveland.

 

Great job Fat Hack! Well written and accurate. I keep looking at the times you make each post and am astounded how quickly the next pile 'o facts comes forth from your fertile mind. Heck it take me about a half an hour to come up with a post like this one here. You are to be commended.

A word on the dizzying interchangability of Ford engines. Yes Ford needs a swift kick it would seem, and I'd be the first in line regarding some issues. Just feel I need to explain a few of the whys. On issue such as the bellhousing differences between the sbf's and bbf's the larger bellhousing pattern was done for three reasons. First the bbf's generally powered hevier vehicles and thus need to house larger engine coupling assemblies (converters and clutches). Second Ford engineering demanded a rigid driveline, hence you got a larger pattern distributing the load over a larger portion of the heavier engines. Third of course is trans tunnel clearence, with the sbf's having small bellhousings designed for the small cars they were generally fitted to.

Another oddity is the oil pan issue. Why no interchangeability between the 289/302, the 351W and the 351C351M/400? Well first the 335 series which is the Cleveland engine family is simply a unique engine design for whatever reason. The front cover is cast integeral with the block like a late Olds. All I can say is Ford was trying new things with the Cleveland some good some bad. Had the U.S. Fords been consistant like the Australian counterparts the whole thing would be simpler. You see "Down Under" they had a much longer Cleveland run. They had the famous 351C and even the 302C. Yes the Austrailians 302 and 351 shared the same block. Any way back to oil pans. The 351W differs from the 289/302 from the same engine family in that having a much larger crank and main caps the pan has a larger rear half circle to clear the out put part of the crank. The front is the same. Frustrating, yes at times very. But knowing why can help sometimes. When Ford made the leap into mid 300" territory they upgraded the whole engine to perform well in the uses an engine that size might be subject to. Taller decks, larger crankpins, stronger rods and heavier main webbing are all featured on the 351W. Ford designed each engine it would seem, for more specific applications. In contrast the sbc stayed basically the same dimensionally speaking all the way from 265" to 400".

Please don't forget folks that all of Ford engines over the decades are called Ford engines and are thought of under one umbrella, yet they were competing with the various GM and ChryCo divisions which themselves had unique designs for their varied applications, eg three different hemis from Mopar, and four different small blocks from GM.

 

That is a good point well worth mentioning as far as the "400 FMX" block goes. Back in the day, we called those "400 Clevelands" after a friend of mine stumbled onto one for sale locally. It took a lot of asking around and questioning to figure out what it was even back then...but what we were told from a Ford engineer jives with your recount.

Those oddabll 400s are pretty scarce today, and like you said...highly sought after by Pantera and other Cleveland guys! I just omitted mention of it to try and avoid undue confusion...but I'm actually glad you brought it up...in case someone else ran across one and found themselves stumped. It's all good info!

As far as oil pan interchangeability, I often wondered about it muself, but seeing catalogs listing pans as fitting both 351C and 351/400M engines makes me think that they likely DO swap out from one motor to another. (Even Fel-Pro pan gaskets are listed as the same part number for both 351C and 351/400M engines) Aside from my buddy who put the 351C into the Capri, the only Clevelands I've dealt with personally used the 'common' front sump pan.

If you have access to a pan and an example of both blocks, it would be good to know for sure if they interchange or not.