Mixed up lifters? Used cams? Is trouble a brewin'?

I was tearing down and cleaning up a SBF (non-roller) yesterday. I kept my lifters sorted, no problem there.

As I examined each lifter, there seemed to be so little wear. The engine is suppose to be low mileage from a theft recover, but that could mean anything.

This has always bugged me. Before everyone jumps on the bandwagon and says "just replace them", I want to know just how likely are you to do serious damage if you do mix up the lifters on a used cam? People make it sound like it is so easy to flatten the lobes by doing this, so I'm wondering if its just hyped too much or not? I'm not building a $$$$ racing motor. I can understand if the lifters are worn too much, but how much is too much?

Anyone use a used cam and couldn't be certain the lifters didn't get mixed up?

What about using a used cam with new lifters?

 

Ive never done it to say exactly what the out come is..But Ive always been told not to do it. Also things like whats it worth to you, or why not spend the money now to do it right..da da da da da..etc..
try it let us know if it works out for ya..or not.
I would be interested in this experiment. that is if you feel lucky

 

Each lobe & lifter wear together. You can file/sand the bottom of the lifter flat it it doesn't have many miles, but considering what it would cost to go back in & replace the cam & lifters, plus ground up cam lobe in the oil....

 

Unfortunately there is a "replace them bandwagon" for a reason. I couldn't tell you how much is too much, or when to replace them, but I will tell you that the two people who I have always trusted with my motor questions are both on that bandwagon.

I have used a used cam with new lifters with no trouble, but only after my motor guy took a good look at the lobes.

Have also used an old cam and lifter set but made sure I didn't mix them up.

 

Don't do it... Those lifters establish a wear pattern that mates to the cam lobe within the first 15-20 minutes of operation; "the break-in period". This is a CRITICAL step to prevent excess wear. If that pattern has already been mated, it must be maintained or the cam and lifters "should" be replaced. That said, in my younger a dumber days, I put engines back together without doing this and didn't notice any major catastrophic problems. But after seeing the aftermath of some others mistakes in the machine shop, I wouldn't risk it. That is, unless you really like tearing engines back down and doing the same job repeatedly...

 

Currently I am running a used cam and lifters in my SBC. Most people will shudder at this, but it runs like a striped ass ape. The trick is to make sure the lifters are first of all good. This means clean, flat bottoms checked with a good straight edge, and not all worn down on the external circle. The camshaft has already been hardened by being run as well as the lifter bases. It is still a gamble though, I was willing to try it because at the time I had a bunch of spare stuff laying around. I have since rebuilt the motor and loved the way it ran so much I put the same combo back in, in the order they were taken out of course. If you have nothing to lose try it. But if you can't risk it buy all new stuff and use the best break in oil you can find. The oil today lacks some critical components for breaking a cam in and you could do just as much damage.

Just my 2c,
Tim

 

Not to be a nay-sayer, but I have known engines to be dumped over to remove the lifters and had them reinserted at random with no ill effects. Just speaking from my experiance, not from what I read.

 

When you can get a cam/lifters from summit for $100 why risk tearing down your motor for it ?!

 

I've run used ones "out of order" before a couple of times, but both were in SBC smog motors that had original valve springs in them. I think if the lifters and cam are in good shape, and you are NOT running stiff valve springs, you've got a pretty good chance of it surviving.

 

The more I think about it, you have that risk anytime you remove the lifters because you might not get them back in the same orientation they came out. I carefully observed each one to match the side of the wear pattern to where it was riding on the cam when I put them back in, but you could never put them back in perfectly unless you marked them and the block somehow before they came out. While the lifter may rotate in its bore back to the way it was, it might not.

People frown on SBF, but you can find them cheaper than a SBC. I see used, running non-roller SBF's pretty often area craigslist and other places for $100 - $250.

 

Frank, the lifters rotate in their bores when the engine is running, so "orientation" isn't an issue. Lifters that DON'T rotate are the ones that go bad.

 

I think it's over-hyped as well.

If you've ever seen someone change a piston and rod in the car, in a driveway, in a day, no balancing, no nit-picking nonsense, and the car ran great forever, like I have seen, you begin to question how accurate this stuff has to be. No it wasn't me.

Just sayin'

 

Of course there's risk with anything ... but to the extent you take a risk and what consequence it may mean money and time wise ... I personally wouldn't take this one. I have taken flattapet cams/lifters out and meticulously kept them in order, but wouldn't re-use or buy used if I hadn't done that myself. Nuff said I guess ...

 

I have done it and know people who have done it with both success and failure.
It's a hit and miss deal.
Like the old saying goes,You Win Some,You Lose Some.
Only you know what you have to lose.
Good luck.

 

Bad advice. Lifters don't have a flat face, they have a convex face. This, plus cam lobe offset is what makes the lifter rotate in its bore. On a SBC, the radius of the lifter face is about 35 to 45 inches.

 

Its a should ya ( NO) or could ya (yes) discussion.
I use them all the time and have for many years.

It requires a complete inspection of the parts.

First of all a lifter isnt flat ( as some one pointed out) they are convex so as to spin in the bore. Once the lifter looses that convex shape its done prety quickly.
Our old black and decker valve grinding machine used to have a lifter grinder on it and we actually ( once upon a time) reground the lifters and had a machine shop that reground cams for a few bucks.
Now that lifters cost $2.34 each, no body really does that service anymore.
I have a couple rods that are presently running used cams and lifters and run very well.

 

I reassembled a SBC once with mixed up lifters and it ran ok with no ill effect, but the lifters were nearly new and had not worn much, the cam was stock, and the valve springs were stock with not much pressure. I got lucky, I guess, since at the time I was only 16 and had no clue what I was doing. 'Course, I also reused several gaskets too.


These days what I would probably do is just toss the old lifters and replace them with new ones. Lifters are relatively inexpensive.

 

I tore down at least a couple of hundred engines while going to auto machinist school, and threw away every lifter I removed. The only lifter I would reuse is a Johnson, due to their rarity and cost, and I would have them recontoured and rehardened before using them.

 

I've done as GEORGE has and sanded the lifter's on a steel plate ,honing
so to speak,then hand sanding the cam lobes to break the glaze.

Use plenty of assembly lube. It worked for me a few times.

I wouldnt do it for any reason other than to save a buck .

 

Also not mentioned,but equally important is that on all non-roller style camshafts, the lobes of the camshaft are tapered about 5 degrees to complement the radius on the lifter base to also aid in lifter rotation...

 

I think it comes down to a "potential cost of replacement" gamble. If it were some oddball engine that replacement parts were either nonexistent or cost prohibative for, I'd consider running the used cam/lifters. Small block Ford? No way; new parts are too cheap to take a chance.

 

The answer is, it depends...

As adjustable j pointed out, the lifter faces are convex, not flat...that's what makes them spin, along with lobe taper & the lifter bore being offset to the particular cam lobe. You want them to spin, as someone else pointed out.

The hardened surface on a flat tappet cam lobe is fairly thin. When you break in the cam & lifters, they form a wear pattern to each other, if all goes well. By definition, you are wearing each part to an extent. (After they form the proper wear pattern, the faces "work harden" to a very, very thin depth & the wear rate is much, much less.)

If you mix up the lifters, you are forcing everything to form a new pattern. If you take a used cam & lifters out of one engine (non-roller) & use it in another, you are doing the exact same thing, because the lifter bores are not in the exact same orientations between the two blocks.

If you replace a lifter on a cam lobe, again, the same thing happens.

You might ask, "Well, since they ARE work-hardened already, won't the wear rate be less?" In reality what happens is that the lifter tends not to spin like it would if the parts were new, and the hardened layer will fail quickly.

Can you get away with it? Maybe...depends on the orientation of the lifter bores, how far they are off from each other...how much wear is on the parts already...valve spring pressure...lots of other things.

I suppose it depends on what the engine is intended for. If you don't particularly care what happens to it, or what could happen, and it's not a daily driver, and replacing it or doing it correctly won't be a problem in the near future...then sure, maybe.

Now, so far as OPINION ....a new cam & lifters aren't that much money, & I don't need the hassle of doing the job twice...nor do I have that kind of time.

I will add that I would NEVER consider doing any of these things to a flat-tappet cam in a big block Chevrolet....it WILL fail.

Incidentally, it is possible to re-finish lifter bottoms by hand & keep the radius, but you have to do more than just wet-sand it on a flat surface...you also should pull the lifter apart & verify the cleanliness, & check the outer diameter of the body for wear.

 

Did it once when I was 16 and very broke. I had to have the car to get to work and school. I drove the engine for about a year after that before it finally failed (oil pump) and I scrapped the car ('65 Impala SS). I wouldn't think of doing any thing similar today but I make a lot more than $1.35 an hour now.

 

I have done it a few times on motors that have had low miles on them and never had a problem lifters were not put in same bore but none were wore motors ran great and are still running till today one was put together 5 years ago and the other 3yrs ago, and yes I can say I have seen a piston and rod swap done in a car a few times and they all ran good after.

 

I don't condone it, but I have seen it done on several stock engines. The only explanation I can offer is that bone-stock engines have a puny, wimpy camshaft in them, and very little spring pressure. That is why they live after mixing up the lifters.

But, you put any kind of aggressive lobe in them, or more spring pressure, and you are asking for trouble.

Nick

 

Sometimes I wonder how good the new lifters are verses the old ones. Not it get into the drama of foreign manufacturing but some of the China stuff is questionable and the comparison is directed to the cheap price of new cams and lifters. There have been some reports of bad adjustable lifters for flatheads, right?

Neal

 

I don't know if it was chinese parts or not - but I had a chet herbert solid roller made for my chevy and it was affordable and worked great... I've also had summit brand cams (which are basically crane cams) and never had an issue.

 

Part of it can be how difficult the car is to work on.
Some cars, it's not worth taking a chance, but I'd probably go for it on my roadster.
I can remove hood, side panels, radiator and braces in about 45 minutes working by myself.

Swapping cams, maybe four hours total.

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That said, here's my experience on the lifters/cam bit.

Very mild 327 SBC in my 63 half ton - headers & 4 barrel, everything else stock, but a good runner.
New set of lifters on a replacement stock cam, cam had maybe 25,000 miles on it.
No problems.


I had my GT model FE 390 torn down and then had to move out of company housing on short notice.
I had the lifters stored in numerical order, but they got dumped over.

Put the engine together with the old - factory - cam it came with, lifters as I took them out of the box, no special order cuz I didn't know anyway.
Engine ran great for several years in the 59 Ranchero, stuck it in a 62 Ford wagon, ran great for a couple more years then the wagon drowned in the 1978 flood in Fillmore, California.


Installed a Crower Compu-Pro cam and lifters in my 77 Ford 400-m engine I'd rebuilt and it wasn't long until a lifter got noisy.
Crower sent me a new one, no problems running it for a couple years, son-in-law took the truck to Idaho from Central California and drove it for a couple years with no probs.
Ran great when he traded it.

Lifters were visually inspected, looked ok and nothing else was done.

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Fwiw - those little rectangular fancy coffee cans (International something?) with orange cappucino etc. make great containers for storing eight lifters at a time.
Number the plastic snap-on top, note which bank, stuff a paper towel in one end to stop the rattles and you're in business.

 

When I was a kid a friend gave me a Duntov 30-30 cam and solids out of his wrecked 283 chevy. At the time I didn`t know about the "don`t mix" rule and installed them in my engine at random. My 283 ran and sounded great for about 500 miles at which time the cam wiped a lobe. My advice.....Don`t Do It.