Technical Gettin it all to work...8ba, late top loader, bell housing, etc

I'm trying to figure out how to get the ol engine parts pile to coagulatify into one functioning unit, and I've got some questions. I have a 50 8ba, what appears to be a late 60s top loader whose numbers indicate it was used in an F100, and a one-year-only 1951 Merc cast bell housing. I need to find an 8ba flywheel, as I've learned the hard way that the 3 59ab's I've got are a no go. I've got both a 9 1/2 and a 10 CF pressure plate as well, clutch for the 9 1/2 too. I believe that Joblot can help me on the bell housing parts like throw out bearing, fork, rod, etc. ; however I'm not sure which ones to go with to make sure it works correctly. I also picked up the plate that holds the starter for the 51 Merc bell housing, which you can see in one of the pics. I know it's a mish mash, but since I had these on hand I wanted to give it a go. The transmission has that neck around the front shaft that is just several thou too large to fit through the Merc housing. Thought a little emory work would fix that. The bolt holes line up fine I believe. Thoughts?









Here's a diagram of my bellhousing on the right:

 

Surely someone with better information then I coming along. Do you have specific part numbers and/or measurements to offer ?

Opening the bellhousing to accept the input shaft retainer ... wouldn't be a big deal. Also, input shaft length, and input shaft pilot bearings can be manipulated to fit the back of your engine. It would be great, getting already proven parts to easily mesh for your purposes in quasi-kit form. I've had input shafts cut down, and made ... but I think with more detailed part numbers from your parts pile ... I would almost bet the farm, that someone in HAMB-landia will have something more suited to your specifics.

 

Thanks for the reply, Kidcampbell!

Here's my previous thread from about 3 years ago when I was considering using at T5. I ended up using a running 305 at the time because that's what I had the cash to support. However, I'm tearing the car back down for final buildup and want to put the flathead in it:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...hangeable-starter-plates.719759/#post-8008539

Rotowrench did a great job laying out what was need to adapt a T5 to what I have; however, since I've got the toploader for free, if it's just as effective and cheaper to use, I'd prefer to use what I've got. Local prices for good T5's are about $800-$1200!!!!

I'll work on getting the part numbers. I think a good many are in that thread. I'll repost when I've got the time.

 

I am not certain on your transmission but I can tell you that the bell housing and starter plate need to a match. Check VanPelt web site there is a lot of information there. If you need a good 8BA flywheel I do have a very nice one as well as a new pressure plate that I would sell.

 

You'll have to research this for verification, but I thought I read somewhere that if you use the small aftermarket starters that they will work with any of the flathead flywheels. For the top loader, be on the lookout for the mid-'70's CJ Jeep shifters that will bolt on with minor alterations to give the ol' timey look.

 

Based on the model of the top loader, it looks like I'll have to pick up a clutch/PP kit like this:



It says its an 11" clutch kit, which in turn means I'd have to pick up an 8BA flywheel that handles the 11" pressure plate. The questions after that would become "does that work with the 51 Merc cast bellhousing?" and "If it does, what type of crossrod and clutch fork, etc do I go with?".

There's also the option of going with the Borg and Beck style of the same kit:

 

I am in the process of putting a top loader 4 speed behind my 1950 8BA flathead as well. Mine is out of a 1966 Mustang. I have the Jeep shift tower and will install that too. I am using a stamped steel flathead bell housing. I had a local machine shop open up the registration hole for the transmission, 1/8 inch from what I recall. The tranny now fits fine. I will also need to remove some amount off the input shaft of the transmission as it bottoms in the end of the crankshaft if you don't. I haven't seen exactly how much in my research yet, but that should be easy enough to figure out. Probably an 1/8 inch as well? Need to figure out pilot bushing still. I am using a stock flywheel, stock clutch, pressure plate, and throw out bearing, as well as the starter that came with this bell housing. I see no need to use a larger clutch for my car as it is a 31 Model A roadster and isn't that heavy. Also, just trying to keep things simple and use what I have on hand already. If you need a picture or two let me know. Happy to grab you a couple as I just pulled the body off to start finish welding the A frame after mock up.

 

Now that this discussion has started it reminded me I need to check the flathead clutch disk to see if the splines will line up on the 4 speed input shaft! Hadn't checked that yet...

 

Yeah, man...I'd *love* to see some pics. Unfortunately, the clutch that I have with the 9.5" pressure plate is too large to fit on the input spline on the front of the trans...hence why I was looking at the kits shown in my last post. That kit also looks like it comes with all the bearings, etc. I think that the diameter of the reg. hole on my cast bell housing is less than 1/8" difference, maybe 1/16"? I'ts almost dead nuts....maybe I'm wrong. either way, it's not much. That trans is out of an F100, late 60s the numbers say.

 

HA!!!! Yeah, I just mentioned that in my reply.....the splines on mine are too large of a diameter.

 

The diaphragm would likely be preferable to an old Long type clutch. An 8BA family flywheel can be drilled for whatever you want to use on there. A lot of Borg Warner stuff crosses over but you still have to check it all out. With a flathead, it would be preferable to stay with a lighter clutch set up so it doesn't slow your rpm build too much. Heavier clutches & flywheels make them slower to respond to the throttle. A 10-inch would be lighter than an 11-inch for sure. Even a small amount makes a difference. You need to match up with the top loader input spline. The old Ford B&W transmissions were 1-inch 10-spline. I can't tell you if the top loader is that size or not. Your late 51 Merc throw out bearing & hub also needs to fit the front output bearing retainer stub and it has to mate up with the finger set up on the pressure plate as well. Some of the diaphragm clutches like the one Center Force sells have extended diaphragm fingers to work with the early type throw outs but the late 51 Merc throw out maybe better for the smaller size input. They were more like the 49 & later fords cars that also had the 1-inch 10-spline and it might just work on a top loader.

 

One thing to watch for when using the aftermarket clutch disc, is the diameter of the springs in the center. The pocket on flathead flywheels is shallow compared to later Fords. The larger diameter springs can sometimes rub on the flywheel bolts, causing clutch chatter. A friend of mine encountered the problem, he has the same identical setup that you have, in a 34 pickup. So, do some measuring before final assembly.

 

back when toploaders went for $100 at swap meets, that was a common thing. you have the right trans (dual bolt pattern) but i think you may have to enlarge the hole in the back of the bellhousing (input shaft) but here's a good primer on the procedure.

 

did something wrong--but you get the idea!

 

Dan, that's some *EXCELLENT* info....and some great scans to boot! THX!

 

Here are a couple of pics of the parts I have. First pic is all the individual parts I plan on using. Second pic is the tranny and bell housing in place attached to the motor so I can set the motor and tranny mounts. I stand corrected as to the clutch dia., it is an 11" disc. The support on the tranny for the input shaft measured 4.850. I had them open the hole in the bell housing to that dia. plus a couple thousands so it would slip in.

 

Nice parts and setup, Gordon! I've been looking around for the Jeep tower and found a few on EvilBizzle....those things are like GOLD. Also looks like the modifications might be a stumbling block for me. I think I might just pick up a late 60s mustang 3spd shifter for it, if that'll work. Anyone know for sure???

 

Thanks. I was cruising craigslist one night and saw the whole Jeep tranny for $140 about 15 miles from my house called right away and it was still there so I ran out and grabbed it! I have never rebuilt a tranny but when I buy the rebuild kit one of the vendors provides a DVD with instructions. I figure between that and the internet I will be able to work it out ok. Puts the shifter right about where the stock one would be in a model A. Dropped my flathead motor off yesterday at the machinist. Will have a 4 inch crank, 1/8" bore, Schneider cam. Not sure on heads and intake yet tho...

 

I am pretty sure the starter plate shown in the picture is an indented truck plate, and won't work with your stamped bell. The only plate that will work with the '49-'51 stamped full bell is the matching angled starter plate, that positions the starter parallel to the crank.
The link below may be of some help.
http://www.flatheadv8.org/bellhousing.pdf

 

Not sure what you goals are, but an 11 in clutch is not a good one to go with if you are interested in acceleration/high performance. The larger the diameter (and weight) of the clutch and pressure plate the slower it is going to accelerate. A better setup would be a 10 inch and better yet a 9 inch, if that is a concern. This also depends on the car, the heavier the car the larger clutch/PP required and the other way around the lighter the car the lighter assembly you can go with.

 

Second comment, with a flathead I would want the T5 with the overdrive. That allows you to run a lower rear end gear and still maintain highway speeds. I run a T5z with a 4:11 QC in a 33 5 window.

 

I'm going for a low-buck build, as much as that's even possible with a flathead. Since I'm trying to run a late 60s toploader, I think the off-the-shelf pressure plate and clutch options are limited to stock (someone correct me if I'm wrong). I do have a 9.5" PP and clutch, but the spline needed is much larger than what's on the trans (1 1/16" if I'm not mistaken). I can afford to drop $100 or so on a PP/clutch kit like I posted above, but not the higher end aftermarket ones like $400 and higher. If you know any part numbers to allow me to use the set I've got, or a set like the one at OReilly that's the smaller diameter, let me know! It's going in my 29 coupester, so it's a very light car. Of course I'd like faster acceleration, but I'm also budgeting.

Yeah, I looked at the T5 option in the thread I linked to earlier in the post, from 2 years ago. Rotorwrench pretty much laid it all out to figure out what was needed and use the 51 Merc bellhousing. However, seeing what T5's have gone up to since that post..shoowee! They're going for $800-$1200 around here! I'm not going for a performance build, more mild stock. I'm running a rear end from a 67 Fairlane, not sure about the gearing.

 

Question for all three of y'all. I understand the idea of using a smaller PP and clutch to increase response from the engine, same goes for lightening the flywheel. Obviously the cheaper/easier route is to get the stock PP/clutch kit for the late model toploader and then pop it on the stock 8BA flywheel already drilled for 11". However, would using a PP/clutch kit from a late 60s 6cyl mustang (9") work in this situation? Of course the flywheel would have to be redrilled. Any other problems come to mind (other than the 2x price tag over the "easy" route)?

 

V8Bob, thanks for that info. I have 3 starter setups sitting on the shelf and grabbed the first one, not being really sure if it was the correct one or not. I thought I had the other angled plate as well but just checked and do not.
Darn! Now I need to find that as I have already had my bell housing machined.

I would have to see the 6 cylinder setup to be able to tell if it might be doable, but wouldn't you really rather have a clutch that was made for the V8, even if it is the older style. After all they put a lot of miles on those setups. I intend to run my car on the street, not the drags, so in my opinion a stock type clutch should be adequate.

 

Yeah, I'd much rather use the stock one...it's cheaper!!! lol. I'm not drag racing this thing....or even racing it period! I only cruise locally...and it's BURBANK. I'm not crazy, I'm not getting this thing on the 5!!!!

 

Was just checking out your build thread. I had seen it before but was refreshing my memory of what it looked like. Looks good! Here are a couple of shots of mine.

 

Yours is a *lot* nicer, and a LEGIT roadster! Love the motorcycle fenders on the front. Funny that I had been thinking of those along with some partial finders in the back, too. I drove mine around for several months, now I'm tearing it all back apart to do the metal work, hammer/dolly, painting everything.

 

If you get sunburned when you drive it then its a roadster! I am sure there are a bunch of sticklers out there that will explain the difference ad nauseam, but if it works for you thats all that matters!

Those fenders are from a spare tire ring that I bought for $25 bucks and cut in half. They are going to need some work but once cut and fitted should look ok. Found an aluminum spare tire cover from a motor home which is a little wider. Cut that in half and may use it for the rear fenders.

 

So I cruised out to the Early Ford Store and traded my 59AB flywheels for a sweet 8BA one. I'll probably have to have it redrilled for an 11" clutch, but I'm also going to see if a 1955 F100 9.5" clutch will work on this late 60s toploader (spline and shaft size are the same). If not, I'll have it redrilled. I hated to part with this cool lightened 59AB flywheel....but I was never going to use it.

 

So I picked up a 9.5" clutch, 10 spline, 1 1/16" shaft from a local parts place today. Not sure if it'll work due to the spring configuration being different. There's only 4 and they sit more proud. It's the same specs and numbers as the Centerforce one. Thoughts???