The good ones, like me, give back equal and honest enthusiasm. I've never sold a car that I didn't feel was worth the money. I feel good about everything I sell and most deals net new friends. There's a mindset with nearly everyone that's hard to break, that being, a profit from this stuff is criminal. How dare I make a living from your hobby or passion? Everyone? Just like your dealer story, no. Just go back through our favorite hang out (right here) and review the overall disdain for anyone who made a little money on something or found a smokin give-away deal on an iconic car or part. In your Rivera story I just wonder wht some of our friends here would do if it was they who happened by the car. It's easy to armchair quarterback the story because I wasn't offered the opportunity, but I will anyway. Maybe I give her $6200. I know I could argue my way to a $9K sale price by leaving it alone but I can't do that. I'd rather drop another $1500 into it and ask $12,500. If the brakes, new window rubbers, and some sympathetic body restoration weren't enough or the next owner, well, (here's the hard-ass part) "Fuck it, don't buy it." Why so rough there? Because I know what it's worth and I left plenty on the table for the future owner. I'd be entitled to that profit because I made it right for the price, probably better than the sum of it's price, and you don't make money getting 5 singles for a 5 dollar bill. Everything's negotiable including me and my stuff but there's a line you can't cross. I've seen and heard of several brokers and dealers who simply live to make sure every client can never trust a fart after dealing with them. How they survive for decades is the part I don't get. How they sleep at night is another. For a time I was blackballed in my little area by several dealer/auction/broker types. The reason was the depth of my research and my honest no-bullshit approach for my clients. I refused a $25K commission against a car I knew wasn't right. I was told by the current owner "...he'll buy it if you say it's good and I'll give you $25K." It wasn't good. The other was a car that wasn't born as it was presented, therefore not worth the price. I confirmed previous ownership and body numbers. Being blackballed from that market for a time didn't hurt too much. While I wasn't making money on selling and buying I was still very busy in the rest of this world. I never lost a night's sleep and embraced the climate of my "too honest" reputation. That was in the early 90s when you couldn't pay enough for a collector car. In the end, Ryan, you are correct ol buddy. There's a lot of scumbags in the collector car market. They do just what you said, zero in their prospect's "gotta-have-its" and ram it in deep and wide. No conscience, no shame, and frankly I never did understand it. Still, if I did stumble onto a jumbo deal on something, let's say a Schwinn "Cotton Picker" at a garage sale for $50. Do I hand them their $50 and go away smiling or do I have a duty to say that it could be worth 10-20 times that figure? That's a grey area many can't seem to get their arms around. What would you do?
The only time I ever bought through a dealer and I was taken for a ride on a OT '70 Trans Am. The bitter taste is still in my mouth after all these years. He saw a young kid with money and took full advantage of him. So yeah, I'm biased. But it seems a lot of them would be running sleazy buy-here, pay-here used car lots if it weren't for the classic car market.
"For the most part, I find Classic Car Dealers to be a rude and brainless subculture of money-hungry fiends that are more disgusting by nature than maggots oozing out of the carcass of a dead animal." I'm glad that you softened it and didn't express how you really feel. I really enjoyed reading this post. Made my day.
I have been on both ends. When i was in my early 20's i bought a 77 corvette with a factory 454 in it from a dealer.... Paid what i thought was a fair price. (unfortunatly corvette never made a factory 454 in 77) i was to much in love with it to do my research. I bought it the first day i saw it. Fast forward to 8 years later when i tried to sell it i couldnt get half of what i paid for it. Now with the current car i have for sale. A stock 62 impala ss i had a dealer drive fromt he next town to look at it brought his mechanic and body man with him and at least they were honest and said the car was in great shape but they needed to make a profit on it so the offered me 8000 less than i had in the ad. They talked about how hard it was to sell today and blah blah blah... Then when they showed the cash in hand... They were hoping i was desperate and would take the cash offer. Shame they drove home with that empty trailer.
...sometimes you run into a dealer that you truly admire. I bought an extremely inexpensive mid 20's car from a very high-end early car dealer. It was a buy-it-now on ebay. I was baffled as to why they would even own something like this. I knew I could flip it for amost 2X the price. He advised me to pick up the car on a weekend when the business was closed and would have time to do the deal. He treated my son and I like the King of Siam, giving us a grand tour of the rarest cars I had ever seen. I could tell he was as passionate about these cars as one could be. I noticed some things that I could use on my hotrod, and he outright gave them to me! A bigger gift was realizing that there are still people out there that are just nice guys. He then told me about the car I just bought; followed a lead on it sitting in a barn, and bought it. He was driving it around the city with a grandson and it quit running, so he put it up for sale. He could have been out driving a megabuck car instead.. The carma continued, as I resold that car in 6 days, and I am now very good friends with the buyer.
Don't have to a be a dealer to be a sleaze-bag. There are plenty of cars being sold and bought in the classifieds here and other sites that are not as described. Plenty of people willing to screw someone over to make a buck, and plenty of naive buyers willing to throw money away without doing their homework.
Thank you for expressing your confidence in me. I hope my involvement in the hobby is seen as more than just a money-making opportunity and that those that interact with me see that I add some value to the hobby.
I am a dealer in Va. I started doing this so I would`nt have to tag all the cars I Love to drive. The Proffit is rarely as good as most think. Hell often there may be a loss after buying from a dirtbag private seller who did a good cover up job. But If I were to do a customer wrong They can file a claim with the Dealer Board and if I am found responsible for fraud they recieve all their money back plus legal expenses. That is why we are bonded. I`m not saying that all dealers are good guys because we all know some bad ones, But I do it so I can drive old cars everyday and go to cruise ins and shows and actually be able to write it off my taxes, also I don`t have to ask my wife about the next purchase because I`m just doing my Job, that I love. I don`t cover up crap either, if its rough its sold as a project and if it is nice I sell it as a driver. I also welcome third party inspections.
That's a lot of words just to state the completely obvious. Does a Mercedes have anything to do with this? It's not like you to have one of these rant threads, especially to kick off the week.
Yup, I've seen cars I sold marked-up quite a bit and with much exaggerated build and show claims. It's much like the professional swap-meeters who desperately need your parts to complete the build of their father's car before he dies only to have those same parts for sale at their space later the same day.
I know everybody hates eBay but this is one area where that thing really shines: If Martha's son puts that car on eBay then the buyer (I lost track of the names?) will get it because he will pay more than the middle-man dealer. You don't have to know what a car is worth, because the bidders will tell you. You don't even have to know what it IS, as long as two bidders know they'll take it right up to market value. The seller gets the true value of the car and the buyer gets the car at the true selling price. Everyone wins. I sold a '69 Charger on eBay about 5 years ago. I was contacted by a variety of rip-off dealers and just ignored them all. The car ended up selling for 50% MORE than anyone in that local area (Akron, Ohio) would pay, and the guy who bought it was an individual who'd wanted one for years and was trilled to get it for the price. We were both happy and other than a $40 commission to eBay there was no middle man. In contrast, 25 years ago my Dad sold a beautiful '56 Vicky to a dealer from Chicago who took it back there (from Akron, Ohio) and immediately sold it for almost exactly double. So my Dad got screwed and the final buyer got screwed and the dealer made several thousand dollars for an hour's worth of haggling and a 6-hour drive.
Within the first 10 pages of the Cars for sale section there are at least 2 users ( pushers ? ) who have hundreds of threads in the classified section and less than 5 on the main board. I don't fear them, but those guys probably ain't getting any bussiness from me...
Oh yeah, and I just remembered: I once saw a car for sale at a swap meet by a dealer for $13,000 that I know he'd purchased for $2,000 that same week. I had a few harsh words with him. A few years later he still had it. That gave me tremendous pleasure - I hope it's still sitting somewhere collecting dust, or that he ended up selling it at a loss.
Yes and no is my answer here. I have been screwed more (or the attempt was made) by eBay, craigslist sellers, and just the average Joe than by a dealer. As for little old ladies? Not all of them are going to heaven. They lie too. I love to buy and sell and make a nice side income from it. But you know what really makes me happy? Making new friends and keeping them. That's why Bobwop is one of the best friends I have ever had. And in my opinion......all the bad car dealers could not hold their own against a gang of real estate agents. That's where the term let the buyer beware should really be used.
Awesome..... Pov's right too, Bob's okay, real estate agents suck, and oh yeah, insurance guys are just the damn mafia with a business license....anyone left to piss off????
1. the "little old lady" did her research and knew what the value of the car was. she has no one but herself to blame for selling low. 2. the dude that bought it from the dealer bought a car without even looking at it. he pretty much deserves whatever he gets. 3. buying used items and reselling for a profit is not evil.
Well written piece, Ryan. I'm a professional Auto Mechanic. My biggest beef is the uphill battle we good ones fight to overcome the few bad one's reputation. I know good honest lawyers, good honest dealers, good honest mechanics. Every profession has bottom-feeders. Sucks, but that's just humans. The opposite of Love is Greed, not Hate, as commonly believed.
They are used car salesmen, plain and simple. I used to do a lot of work for used car lots. The term Classic car dealer doesn't make any difference. The scum of the earth. The only thing that matters is the profit. Anything that will improve that is fair game. I could never do that. Greed has ruined our hobby. Nobody cares about the cars. It's only about the Benjamin's I love your choice of words!!
I recently sold my '32 and had contacted a few dealers as I thought it would be easier to trade it for something else I wanted/liked. At the time I was willing to trade in either direction, up or down. After emailing and talking to a few I really felt I would get NO value out of selling my car wholesale (or below) to them and paying retail (or above) for theirs. How does that benefit me in any way? So I basically sold the car privately myself. I have not decided on what I want to buy yet, but I do lots of internet searches and see prices. Dealers always have MUCH higher prices. I cannot imagine their cars are all better! I think I will buy from a private person; but think it's really important to see the car in person before purchasing.
Ryan, I think we all get a little confused due to our love for old cars and the business of buying and selling. No one forced anytone to enter into any of these agreements. I am not in the car business but I am very careful of how and who I do business with. Let the buyer beware. BC
Paul sold me my first Studebaker truck off eBay back in 2002 I think it was. I won the auction for what I considered a pretty decent deal and still do. I'm in CA and he is in KS, so I didn't think it was worth going out to look at the truck. I figured what the hell, got take his word for it. I remember him saying before we closed the deal something like, 'I hope you realize this is just an old beat up farm truck.'. And I wrote back, 'Yep, that is just what I want, thanks'. And that is just what I got and still am driving the old beat up farm truck to this day. I figured out a delivery service to go get it for me and a week or so later he had it out front off the shop. He said it ran when he loaded it but now can't get it to start. It was the only car left on his trailer, so I said let's just roll it off and I'll look at it later. I didn't really know much of anything about fixing old cars and after 2 weeks of trying, I couldn't figure it out and never even had it moved from the same spot. One day I was out giving it another failed effort whe this old guy comes up and says 'Hey, I'll get that running for you for $20. I think, give me break, 'Sure, you get it going and 20 bucks is yours'. He pulls a screw driver out of his pocket (why he was carrying that around on the street I have idea) and says get in and turn it over when I say to. I think what waste, but whatever. He says go and boom, it fires right up. I think WTF, how can that be. He says, 'Ok, give the $20.'. I say no, that was too easy, not without you telling me what you did. He said see this, holding the screw driver up. Just BS. I just pushed this button on here' as he pointed to what I now know is the starter solenoid. I asked him how the hell he knew that was the problem and just said he could tell just from watching me from a half block away. So started my lessons on how to work on old cars. Soon enough I have cleaned up as many wiring connections as I could, knock about 100lbs of red KS dirt off the chassis, followed by all new wires, some paint here and there, a couple of motor swaps, some hop up parts and a propane conversion. Never even heard of a Studebaker before I saw this on eBay. But thanks to Paul and eBay, now I do. Bought the hemi Cragar super charger off of him a couple years back too for my hot rod project. Paul got me into this fun mess and he's a good man in my book.
Well written and mostly 90 per cent on target I met a Preacher who also dealt in " classic cars " I asked him out he could be a used car dealer ... be a true man of GOD and make a living from the " classis cars " all at the same time ??? He just GRINNED and said it was difficult. I did NOT buy the car from him
Hit the nail on the head....(only thing I dont agree with is telling a lie to someone about the brakes and the bondo on the dents)
If your dad made a deal and sold the car at a price he thought was fair, and the final buyer bought a car he wanted at a price he/she thought was reasonable, how did anyone get screwed? There is nothing wrong with buying and selling used cars at a profit, that is called business. It's when people go out of their way to conceal, deceive or falsify that they become assholes.
I don't like to see people get ripped off, but ratfink has a point. The old lady could have refused the offer--he wasn't holding a gun to her head. The dealer is a capitalist doing business in America. He is in business to make money. Are we saying that when he bought it from the nice old lady this Buick was a nice old car with a few door dings and some minor rust, but after he put some money into it to get ready to sell it was a terrible old car with serious hidden issues and bad brakes? There are bad people in every kind of business. But the purpose of a car dealer, any car dealer, is to buy low and sell high. Really, that is the goal of every business. In the case of an old car, you can sell it for whatever you want (as long as someone will pay it). When you buy one, you need to do your research and know what you're getting. That's the way it works. Now, if that car had been hit by a train, and the dealer rebuilt it to look nice knowing that it was severely damaged, unsafe, and not at all like the nice original that he described, then you have more of a point. And certainly, that happens too. BTW--I am not a dealer. But I do like looking around at those places when I've got a few minutes to kill.
Thank you stude trucks but I would like to have my 100 lbs of Kansas dirt back if you don't mind.....
Well said Ryan, and I believe it to be a fairly adequate perception of the situation. I have seen it happen, even just by a retired guy with enough money to turn a car or 2 every year.... Not just the used car dealers...
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