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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    It all gets pretty confusing. The #23 and the#14 are 2 different cars. The 23 has parrallel front springs and the 14 has a cross spring front. The car that Robson was killed in at Lakewood was the parrallel spring car and was supposedly cut up. It appears your pics show a cross spring car. I think the cross spring car survived and has been restored but it may be even a completely different car, not 100% sure.
     

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  2. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 745

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    A bunch of those 1930 machines were drug out of storage after the War.

    Here's a two second glimpse of the car in question - moments before the fatal crash.
    video at 0:30 car #16 Noc-Out Spl.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJjhEpKYrBQ

    carl schulz
    Indio, CA
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2013
  3. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 8,491

    noboD
    Member

    Google shows them to be 1.8 miles apart, just up College Ave. from each other. Might have a lot to do with similarities of a M&B head with a Frontenac.
     
  4. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    Some more that may be of interest:
     

    Attached Files:

  5. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 245

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    I really like the paint scheme on this machine. The use of louvers is wicked too. It's sad that this car had such a volatile history.
     
  6. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 6,640

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Andre' Lefebvre Lefere sur Voisin laboratoire a la course de cote de Gallion en 1923.
     

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  7. Don Capps
    Joined: Feb 13, 2010
    Posts: 111

    Don Capps
    Member

    Something for those who might be interested, as adopted on May 12, 1903:

    The Racing Rules of the American Automobile Association: 1904

    Sanctions​
    1. Sanctions. Any person, association or club (hereafter referred to as the Promoter) desiring to hold a race or races under the rules of the American Automobile Association shall first obtain a sanction from the Chairman of the Racing Board. No announcement of such race or races shall be made until such sanction shall have been obtained. Infraction of this rule shall perpetually disbar the offending promoter from obtaining a sanction from the racing board.

    2. Applications. The application for such sanction shall be made to the Secretary of the Racing Board, and shall be accompanied by a fee of fifty dollars for non-members of the American Automobile Association, or ten dollars for members, and shall set forth the name and address of the Promoter; a schedule of the events and distances; the number and value of the prizes, the amount of the entry fees and details of the course. If the event is to run on the road the board may require evidence of the permission of the proper legal authorities. The racing board may refuse a sanction without assigning a reason for such refusal.

    3. No Changes. After a sanction shall have been granted no change shall be made in any of the details required to be set forth in the application for same.

    4. Transgression. No sanction shall be granted to a Promoter who shall have previously transgressed the racing rules of the American Automobile Association, or permitted another to transgress them at a meeting under his management.

    Entry Blanks​
    5. Entry Blank. On receipt of a sanction the Promoter shall prepare an entry blank, which shall show the details set forth in Rule 2: the date of the closing of entries; the address to which entries must be sent; and which shall require the entrant to supply the name of the operator, the machine he will drive, the name of the maker, the motive power, the weight, supplies included; the number of cylinders, the rated horse power, and the date of mailing the entry. It shall bear upon its face the words, “ Under the rules, and with the sanction of the Racing Board of the American Automobile Association.” A copy of the entry blank shall, immediately upon its issue, be forwarded to the Chairman of the Racing Board. A copy of these rules shall be sent by the Promoter to every entrant.

    Entries​
    6. Entries. The acceptance of the entries shall be limited to those persons who have not, since January 1, 1903, taken part in any automobile race or hill climbing test not sanctioned by the Racing Board of the American Automobile Association; and who have never knowingly competed with a person not eligible under the rules of the Racing Board; who agree, by their signatures to the entry blank, to recognize the jurisdiction of the racing board of the American Automobile Association in racing matters; and who have not been debarred from competition in events over which the American Automobile Association or the governing bodies of other nations have jurisdiction. The act of competing at an unsanctioned event, shall disqualify without further action of the Racing Board, and such disqualification shall remain in effect until removed by formal action of the Racing Board.

    7. Car and Operator. An entry shall consist of a combination of operator and car, the latter being described at the time of the entry. No change of car shall be permitted after an entry has been filed, nor of operator without the consent of the referee.

    8. Receipt of Entries. No entry shall be accepted after midnight of the day set for the closing of the entries; no entry shall be accepted unless accompanied by the entry fee and all the details required to be set forth in the entry blank. The acceptance of an entry under other conditions shall be sufficient reason for the refusal of a subsequent sanction to the offending Promoter.

    9. Assumed Name. An entry under an assumed name or failure to supply correct information in an entry blank shall result in disqualification.

    10. Failure to Start. A person who enters and once fails to start may, after having been warned by the Racing Board for a subsequent offense, be suspended for any term not exceeding three months, and in the event of repetition of the offense be suspended for the rest of the season.

    11. Competitors shall be responsible for all damages – civil or criminal.

    Classification​
    12. The classes for vehicles which are officially recognized by the American Automobile Association are the following:

    1st. Vehicles weighing from 1432 to 2204 lbs.
    2nd Vehicles weighing from 881 to 1432 lbs.
    3rd Vehicles weighing from 551 to 881 lbs.
    4th Vehicles weighing from 110 to 551 lbs.

    13. Vehicles in classes 1 and 2 shall carry at least two passengers side by side, of a minimum mean weight of 132 lbs. per passenger; it is to be understood that in cases where the mean weight of the passenger does not reach 132 lbs. the deficiency must be made up by means of ballast.
    The weight of the vehicles in the several classes shall always be computed in the empty state. By weight in the empty state is meant, with no passengers, nor stores (coal, petrol, water, accumulators,) nor tools, nor spare parts, nor luggage, nor clothes, nor provisions.
    Vehicles which draw the energy required for ignition from a device actuated by the motor shall benefit by an allowance of weight of 15 lbs. The weight of lamps, lampholders and horns, is not comprised in the said weight of the vehicles.
    By way of exception, in races on tracks and for record making, vehicles seated for two persons will be allowed to be occupied by one person only, but the necessity for two persons is indispensable in races on roads.

    14. The racing board shall be judge as regards the admission of such other sub-divisions as organizers of races may desire to make in the classes specified above.

    15. Automobile Motor Car, Car. An automobile, motor car or car within the meaning of these rules, is a four wheeled track or road vehicle propelled by self contained mechanical means.

    Officers​
    16. Referee. The principal officer at a meeting shall be the Referee, whose duty it shall be to exercise general supervision over the affairs of the meeting and act as the representative of the Racing Board.
    He shall, if necessary, assign the judges, timers, umpires, clerk of the course and start to their respective positions and instruct them as to the rules. He shall receive all protests and render decisions thereon, subject to appeal to the Racing Board. It shall be his duty to enforce the rules and make a full report to the chairman of the racing board of transgressions thereof either by promoters, contestants or officials.

    17. Judges. There shall be three Judges whose position shall be on or at the edge of the track, two at one end and one at the opposite end of the tape. The numbers of the placed cars shall be taken, one each by the three Judges respectively. The decision of the Judges as to the order of finishing shall be final. The judging of the cars shall be determined by the instant of contact of the tires of the front wheels with the tape.

    18. Timers. There shall be three Timekeepers whose sole duty it shall be to accurately calculate, report and record the elapsed time of placed contestants. In the event of disagreement of the watches, two agreeing, their time shall be official. Shall all the watches disagree, the middle time shall be official. In a time handicap the time shall be taken from the start of the scratch contestant.

    19. Clerk of the Course. There shall be a Clerk of the Course, with as many assistants as may be necessary. It shall be his duty to notify competitors, in due time, of the events in which they are entered; see to the arrival of the competitors at the starting point on time and to place them in their respective positions.

    20. Starter. It shall be the duty of the Starter, after he has been advised by the Clerk of the Course that the contestants are ready, to ascertain that the timers are ready, and then give the signal to start by firing a pistol. He shall have absolute control of the competitors from the time they are reported by the Clerk of the Course until the start has taken place. In the event of a flying start, the starter alone shall have power to decide what is a fair start, and may use a flag instead of a pistol as a signal to the contestants to start, having previously warned the timers of his intention to do so.

    21. Umpires. There shall be two of more Umpires, whose duty shall be to take positions assigned to them by the referee, to note carefully the progress of the race and be prepared to report upon claims of unfair driving by contestants.

    22. Track and Stand. No persons other than the officials, contestants and one assistant for each contestant shall be allowed upon the track. Contestants and attendants must leave the track as soon as the event in which they are engaged has ended. The stands are for the use of the Referee and Timers. No other persons shall be permitted therein.

    23. Programme Contain. The programme shall bear upon its face the words: "Under the rules and with the sanction of the Racing Board of the American Automobile Association" and shall set forth the distance of each race; description of prizes and their value; a copy of the rule relative to the classification of automobiles for racing; the manner of starting; a list of the names of the officials strictly in accordance with the rules relating to same; and a list of the entrants and their numbers.

    The Start​
    24. Starting. In the event of a match race the position of the contestants at the start shall be decided by lot. In open events the positions shall be allotted on the programme, the lowest number taking the inside with at least 4 feet intervening between hubs. Entries shall be numbered by the promoter in the order of their receipt. A contestant who fails to respond promptly to the call of the Clerk of the Course shall forfeit his right to his position and shall take the outside. There shall be no delay at the start on account of absentees and no contestant shall be permitted to take a place in the line after contestants have been reported to the starter by the clerk of the course.

    25. Timing Start. The start shall be determined by the instant of contact of the tires of the front wheels with a tape laid across the track.

    26. Starts may be either standing or flying. Due notice of the method must be given on the programme, but in the event of failure to state the method a standing start shall prevail.

    27. Rail. All track races shall be run with the left hand of the operator toward the rail.

    28. Prohibit. The Referee shall have absolute power to prohibit any car which he considers unsafe, unsuitable or of improper construction to start in any event.

    Heats​
    29. Heats and Final. The referee may, in case there are a larger number of entries than can be safely started in one race, divide the contestants into two or more heats of as nearly equal numbers as possible and a final.

    30. Passengers as Assistants. A competitor may, if he elects, carry one assistant as a passenger. After having been passed by the Clerk of the Course no car shall receive attention at the hands of any person other than the competitor and his assistant.

    Track Rules​
    31. It shall be the duty of the operator of the leading car to hold the inside as nearly as may be practicable. One contestant overtaking and passing another, must pass on the outside unless the car in front shall be so far from the inside as to render it safe to pass on the inside. After having passed to the front a competitor shall not take the inside, or cross in front of the competitor passed, unless a lead of a full length has been established, under penalty of disqualification.

    32. Foul Driving. Intentional foul driving shall be punished by disqualification for all subsequent events at the meeting, as well as the event in which the foul practice occurs, and may be punished by the Racing Board by suspension not exceeding six months for the first offense and permanent suspension for a second offense.

    33. Road Rules. In road racing the rules of the road, which require a car to keep to the right when overtaken, shall be observed and a competitor when overtaken must allow as much room as the road permits to his competitor in which to pass.

    34. Leaving Track. A competitor who leaves the track or road, for any cause, must, if he desires to continue the race, start from the point at which he withdrew. A competitor who leaves the track or road, or is unable to continue, in a race run in heats, shall not be allowed to compete in a subsequent heat
    of the same race.

    35. Demonstrate Ability. The Promoter or the Referee may, if they consider it advisable, require a contestant to demonstrate his ability to properly handle the car he proposes to drive.

    36. Signs or Advertisements. No sign or advertisement of any description other than official designation shall be displayed on a car in any race, whether on road or track.

    37. Signals. In road or track races the overtaking car must give proper signal by bell or horn.

    Record and Time Trials​
    38. Records. No time shall be accepted as an official record unless taken by at least three Timers, and no private trial shall be recognized unless the timers shall have been approved in advance by the Racing Board.

    39. Surveyor’s Certificate. Claims for records must be accompanied by a surveyor's certificate as to the correctness of the distance measured, if on the track, three feet from the pole, and if on the road, at its center, together with evidence that the course is level.

    40. Intermediate Distances. The fact that a contestant attempts to lower the record for a given distance and fails shall not prevent the acceptance of records at intermediate distances, either standing or flying start, properly attested by the timers.

    41. Dead Heat. In case of a dead heat the event shall be run again, unless the contestants agree, between themselves, as to the disposition of the prizes.

    42. Walkover. In the event of a walkover it shall be optional with the Referee whether the contestant shall be required to go the whole or part of the distance. The Referee may impose a reasonable time limit.

    Protests​
    43. Protests. Protests of every kind must be made to the referee within 24 hours of the finish of a race. The complainant must deposit with the referee a fee of $10, which shall be forfeited to the promoter if the protest is not sustained. A protest may be lodged only by a contestant, and once
    lodged can only be withdrawn by consent of the Racing Board.

    44. Referee’s Decision. In the event of a protest relative to classification of a car, or other matter which shall affect the right of a car to start, the Referee may, unless able to render an immediate decision, allow the car to start and render his decision as soon after the event as may be possible.

    45. The making or laying of bets shall not be recognized.

    46. Powers of the Racing Board. The Racing Board reserves the right to veto the appointment of any official; to select the Timers in private record trials; to assign dates; to inquire into and deal with all matters relating to racing, subject to the rules; to disqualify, either temporarily or permanently, persons guilty of infraction of the rules; to determine who are and who are not eligible to compete; to interpret these rules and to decide any point not covered herein as it may consider advisable.

    47. Amendments These rules may be amended by the board of directors of the American Automobile Association.

    Glossary​

    Automobile. Any four wheeled road or track vehicle propelled by self-contained mechanical means.

    Motor Car or Car. Any four wheeled road or track vehicle propelled by self-contained mechanical means.

    Racing Board. The Committee representing the American Automobile Association.

    Promoter. Any Person, Association or Club, who holds a race meet sanctioned by the Racing Board of the American Automobile Association.

    Race. A speed contest either against time or in competition, whether on the track or road, sanctioned by the Racing Board of the American Automobile Association.

    Walkover. When but one car entered for an event reports to the Starter.

    Prize. The award won by a motor car.

    Signal. A warning sound, produced by bell or horn.

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  8. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,422

    64 DODGE 440
    Member
    from so cal

    Boy...Wouldn't rule #36 change the way things are done today!:D
     
  9. saacha
    Joined: Mar 20, 2011
    Posts: 161

    saacha
    Member
    from cloud 9

    Thank you Don Capps for this most interesting page of history, do you have more from where this came from?
     
  10. Don Capps
    Joined: Feb 13, 2010
    Posts: 111

    Don Capps
    Member

    My current work is focused on US racing until the end of the 1920 season. As a result of my research, I have the Racing Rules or Contest Rules of the A.A.A., whether complete or nearly so, for the following years: 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906-7, 1908, 1909, 1910, 1911, 1912, 1913, 1914, 1915, 1916, 1917, 1919, 1920. I also have the Racing Rules of the A.C.A. that were published in November 1908, in time for the Savannah races.

    In addition, I have other years beyond 1920, such as 1922, 1924 and later, even 1953.

    Rule 36 did change within a few years, one result being that cars had to be Named, all racing cars being required to be registered as a Special.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  11. saacha
    Joined: Mar 20, 2011
    Posts: 161

    saacha
    Member
    from cloud 9

    Silly question Don Capps, no mention of chequered flag in these early rules?
     
  12. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 745

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    "Rickenbacker in Maxwell at Elgin Road Races 1915"
    http://www.firstsuperspeedway.com/photo-gallery/rickenbacker-maxwell-1915-lr4
    [​IMG]
    I was browsing Mark Dill's wonderful 'firstsuperspeedway' site a month ago when I came across this photo above.
    It caught my attention because I'd just used a photo of race winner Barney O in a Maxwell at the Tucson Road Race of 3-20-15 courtesy of the Arizona Historical Society in a race report for Billy Shuman's West Coast Vintage Racers Southwest Chapter.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/91981316@N06/sets/72157633188888275/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/91981316@N06/8515311299/in/set-72157633188888275
    [​IMG]
    Have tried to contact Mark Dill on several occasions but no reponse.
    I believe the photo on his site should be labelled Tucson Road Race 3-20-15.
    Am I correct?
    Any comment would be appreciated.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/91981316@N06/8629599623/in/set-72157633188888275
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  13. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,422

    64 DODGE 440
    Member
    from so cal

    Definitely looks like both pictures are at the same race.
     
  14. Don Capps
    Joined: Feb 13, 2010
    Posts: 111

    Don Capps
    Member

    Carl,

    In my opinion, it is certainly the grandstand at the Tucson race that Rickenbacher is being shown in front of.
     
  15. Don Capps
    Joined: Feb 13, 2010
    Posts: 111

    Don Capps
    Member

    The Gordon White microfilm that was made from the A.A.A. material in the IMS museum basement lists the Contest Board Bulletins for 1950-1954 as being "missing," hence the lack of any documentation for the changes wrought by Russ Catlin.
     
  16. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 245

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    Here is a fun picture with lots of faces from the golden era.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. 29AVEE8
    Joined: Jun 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,384

    29AVEE8
    Member

    I think Pete DePaolo, like some others: Norma Jean Baker, Cary Grant... never had a bad photo taken.
     
  18. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,967

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    [​IMG]

    S. F. Edge and the Early Gordon Bennett Napier Racing Machines: Shown here are just two of the many photos up on a post at The Old Motor, which also includes a film of the 1902-05 Gordon Bennett Races.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  19. LeeStohr
    Joined: Oct 21, 2009
    Posts: 108

    LeeStohr
    Member
    from Washington

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Just got back here and saw the Christie photos -
    The car on the right is the 1906 Christie, Walter is testing prior to that year's Vanderbilt Cup race. These were two separate cars, the one on the left was being built and nearly finished while the 1906 car raced in practice for the Vanderbilt.
    The car on the left is the 1907 Christie, which Walter raced in the French GP that year. This photo however shows the car in late 1908, as it was stripped down for oval track match races around the US. Promoter Ernie Moross is shown at the wheel. He was organizing 'races' with Barney Oldfield, Ollie Savin and Hughie Hughes. Actually the newspapers of the time called it a "bunco game pure and simple." Walter was busy back in New York building his final Christie racer by then.
     
  20. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 30,808

    The37Kid
    Member

    ^^^^ Thanks Lee, that info on the Christie on the left, that clears up some questions I had. The original radiator that covered the car was replaced with the one in the photo, giving it a totally different look. The dual right front wheels may have been a first in oval reack racing. Bob
     
  21. Don Capps
    Joined: Feb 13, 2010
    Posts: 111

    Don Capps
    Member

    Here is something that has probably been mentioned before, but which might add a bit of perspective. Below is an item from the minutes of the Contest Board meeting held on 8 January 1929 at the Waldorf-Astoria in New York City as submitted by the Secretary of the Contest Board, Val Haresnape, on 14 January 1929:

    "TITLE "GRAND PRIZE OF AMERICA" VOTED INDIANAPOLIS "500": The position that the Indianaplis 500-mile race had always held in connection with American racing was drawn to the attention of the Board. It was the unanimous opinion of the board that the annual 500 mile race promoted by the Indianapolis Speedway Association be awarded the distinction of the title "Grand Prize of America". It is the custom in European countries for the governing motor club to organize each year a distance race under the title of Grand Prize of that particular country. The American Automobile Associaition no longer organizes races, but since the most important race in other countries is always its Grand Prize event, it was felt that it was fitting that the title be conferred on the Indianapolis event."

    Keep in mind that one finds a number of references in the Contest Board bulletins and minutes, as well as in the programs for the International Sweepstakes race, to the "Grand Prix of Indianapolis" during the Thirties.

    In addition, always keep in mind that the inaugural event of the original CSI world championship in 1925 was at Indianapolis.

    Again, when those who exclude the1950-1960 Indianapolis events from their coverage of the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs because they were not "Formula 1" events, they are being the worst sort of revisionists, doing so despite knowing better, deliberately altering things.
     
  22. LeeStohr
    Joined: Oct 21, 2009
    Posts: 108

    LeeStohr
    Member
    from Washington


    Yes, it seems like the '07 Christie must have pushed (understeered) bad with all that engine weight up front. But Christie was a racer. He didn't have the tire selection available back then that we have today. His solution was to double the tire width by making his own special wheels to mount two tires on the outside front. He made all his own wheels with his own patented detachable rims by late 1906.

    For his last racer, the one Barney Oldfield used for several years, Christie inclined and moved the engine back to balance the weight between the front and rear wheels. That car seemed to work well.

    Here is Barney in the 1909 Christie, racing Teddy Tetzlaff at Playa Del Ray in 1913. Notice how low and compact the Christie is, even with a 1237cuin engine under the hood !

    [​IMG]
     
  23. LeeStohr
    Joined: Oct 21, 2009
    Posts: 108

    LeeStohr
    Member
    from Washington

     
  24. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 745

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

     
  25. Don Capps
    Joined: Feb 13, 2010
    Posts: 111

    Don Capps
    Member

    The promoters were responsible for running the events themselves, that is, the "organizing" of the races, while the AAA Contest Board served as the national sanctioning body or national motor club for racing, etc.. A bit subtle to be sure, but an accurate view of the relationship that existed between the AAA and the various motor clubs and promoters in the US.
     
  26. LeeStohr
    Joined: Oct 21, 2009
    Posts: 108

    LeeStohr
    Member
    from Washington

    Don,
    I just found it a very odd choice of words, it sounds like "of course the AAA used to organize races, but now we only sanction them".
    The AAA never organized races, they wrote the rules and took sanction fees, if I understand correctly. Promoters organized the races, as you say.
     
  27. Don Capps
    Joined: Feb 13, 2010
    Posts: 111

    Don Capps
    Member

     
  28. Don Capps
    Joined: Feb 13, 2010
    Posts: 111

    Don Capps
    Member

    Lee,

    You are spot on in your statement.

    The point that they were apparently trying to make is to contrast the role of the A.A.A. and its Contest Board -- and the Racing Board prior to 1909 -- with the way the European motor clubs operated.

    However, also keep in mind that the A.C.A. did act as a race promoter before and during its membership with the A.A.A., which is not surprising given that it was essentially the automobile club for the New York City area.
     
  29. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 2,001

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

     
  30. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 745

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    Thanks for the correct info!
     

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